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Who is Jesus?

Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.

Postby jimwalton » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:00 pm

> You are acting as though "nothing" was existent prior to "something" (that something being the universe).

It's my understanding that scientists and mathematicians consider that before the Big Bang, all there was was a dimensionless singularity where no physical forces existed. If that is the case, that's why I used the word "from nothing" to describe it. I know there are speculations (and, of course, they are speculations) that possibly time existed, and Hawking has speculated that the universe "would have been on top of itself" and "the density would have been infinite," though this is hard to grasp. If the density were infinite, rather than limited, I presume that the density of the universe now would be infinite, which I don't think is the case. As far as I know, there is nothing about general relativity that gives any clue as to what was prior to the starting point of the Big Bang. As far as I know, there was no preexisting mass-energy, spacetime, or anything else. I'm just not well-versed enough to know.

> To expand on this point, in order to come "from" something, there needs to be a place that you come "from" in the first place.

And yet as far we know, "space" was being created as the universe expanded. So where did it come from (as you are asking), and into what was it going. My head is spinning. :)

> I do believe this. I was of the understanding that you did as well to some degree, and thus didn't see it as ridiculous. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Oh, I do believe that biology "adapted itself," but with help: guided and purposed by an intelligent providence.

> Could you be a bit more specific? What kind of data are you referring to? Do you mean DNA codes and that like?

The process by which biological information (DNA codes and that like) arose remains an open question. Could it have come about on its own, or did it fortuitously happen in the course of time? Even the most popular scientific theory about RNA (leading to the informational data of DNA) is mostly a matter of scientific imagination and desperate obstacles. Scientists admit the implausibility of the emergence of an RNA replicator from a pool of polynucleotides by a purely random process. Joyce and Orgel believe that the de novo appearance of oligonucleotides on the abiotic Earth would have been a near miracle.

All data seem to point in the same direction. Scientists struggle to find a purely physical and biological way that this could have happened (granted, it's close to impossible to peer back into the authentic beginning-of-life scenario), but for theists, the explanation of an existing and purposeful intelligence is a very reasonable and logical solution.

> I also don't see why not believing in hard atomism leaves only God as an explanatory source.

It doesn't, but it leaves God as a plausible explanation.

> Our ability to reason is an emergent property possible only through experience, and through the outcomes of trial and error, which occur in natural processes.

The problem with this is that if our ability to reason came about through the somewhat haphazard and "random" processes of natural selection and genetic mutation, "truth" is not part of that picture. Survival is.

Thomas Nagel: "If we came to believe that our capacity for objective theory (e.g., true beliefs) were the product of natural selection, that would warrant serious skepticism about its results."

Barry Stroud: "There is an embarrassing absurdity in [naturalism] that is revealed as soon as the naturalist reflects and acknowledges that he believes his naturalistic theory of the world. … I mean he cannot it and consistently regard it as true."

Patricia Churchland: "Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in the four Fs: feeding, fleeing, fighting, and reproducing. The principle chore of nervous systems it to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive. … Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism’s way of life and enhances the organism’s chances of survival. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost."

Plantinga writes that what they are all saying is, "The principal function or purpose, then, of our cognitive faculties is not that of producing true or near true beliefs, but instead that of contributing to survival by getting the body parts in the right place. What evolution underwrites is only (at most) that our behavior is reasonably adaptive to the circumstances in which our ancestors found themselves; hence it doesn’t guarantee true or mostly true beliefs. Our beliefs might be mostly true, but there is no particular reason to think they would be: natural selection is not interested in truth, but in appropriate behavior. What Churchland therefore suggests is that naturalistic evolution—that is, the conjunction of metaphysical naturalism with the view that we and our cognitive faculties have arisen by way of the mechanisms and processes proposed by contemporary evolutionary theory—gives us reason to doubt two things: (a) that a purpose of our cognitive systems is that of serving us with true beliefs, and (b) that they do, in fact, furnish us with mostly true beliefs."

> but would this show that this is not the only universe that life could inhabit? Would this show that fine tuning is suspect after all?

We have no idea if there are other universes, and we dare not assume such until there is a shred of evidence. We can't be suspicious of fine-tuning of this universe on an unsubstantiated assumption.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.

Postby Book Mitten » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:00 pm

Your quotes from scientists I don't disagree with. My point is that order can exist within one domain (such as genetics) without it needing to exist on another, or be connected to the existence of order on another domain. Order of biological systems doesn't have to imply a cosmic, metaphysical, or existential designer, in my opinion.

Regarding Pantheism, there's several interpretations. Absolute unity doesn't have to exist in a pantheistic super-organism if it is learning and adapting, or maintaining its existence in an imperfect state of affairs, as biological systems do. In addition, the pantheistic scenario could be indifferent to us personally, a little like a Lovecraftian picture.

> In such a situation, there is no possibility of subject-object relationships, and therefore no foundation for knowledge, love, or morality

I feel as though this is a misuse of the reductio ad absurdum. Unity of substance could simply mean existing in the same world. Enemies could be in "unity" in such a way in that they share common experience, but are still enemies. Furthermore, unity on one level can exist without meaning the same degree of unity exists on another. This is where emergent properties come in. Properties that have characteristics different in explanation to their component parts.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.

Postby jimwalton » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:14 pm

> My point is that order can exist within one domain (such as genetics) without it needing to exist on another,

Agreed. My bedroom compared to that of an OCD person would be a case in point.

> Order of biological systems doesn't have to imply a cosmic, metaphysical, or existential designer, in my opinion.

Except that we, being inquisitive as we are, wonder why order describes a system that exploded (the Big Bang), and why order describes a biological system that lurches, progresses, regresses, missteps, has accidents, selects, and mutates. How does that create and maintain order? But the more important question is: Does it make more sense that this system creates and maintains order, or that a purposeful, personal intelligence does it?

> Absolute unity doesn't have to exist in a pantheistic super-organism if it is learning and adapting, or maintaining its existence in an imperfect state of affairs, as biological systems do.

Then it's not pantheism. Pantheism is a religious perspective that all is one, one is all, and all is god (pan-theism). Even if you wanted to ditch the religious part and talk about pan-everythingism, it's still self-contradictory to have a pan-everything system in conflict with itself (nature's beneficence vs. nature's destructive power). A kingdom divided against itself can't stand. In contrast, the Christian perspective is congruent: a personal-infinite, powerful, purposeful, intelligent God, an ideal in perfect accord with what we see: reason, purpose, and personality.

> In addition, the pantheistic scenario could be indifferent to us personally, a little like a Lovecraftian picture.

Exactly. The pantheistic scenario is inimical to the idea of personality. If pantheism is the scenario, personality is expunged.

> Unity of substance could simply mean existing in the same world.

Then you shouldn't use the term "pantheism," because it portrays a different concept than you are describing. Pantheism is uniting reality with divinity, not a quasi-consistent unity in diversity boasting some elements that aren't unified at all.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.

Postby Book Mitten » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:18 am

> It doesn't, but it leaves God as a plausible explanation.

I would say God is a possible but not necessarily plausible explanation under either atomism or other metaphysical conceptions. Nicholas Hill for example was a theist who espoused epicurean atomism.

> "truth" is not part of that picture. Survival is.

Regarding this, and the quotes that follow, I would say that the two can overlap, even if they are separate. Someone will be able to observe the existence of food. Their evolutionary ability to perceive and obtain food crosses over with the fact that the food does objectively exist. Such is perhaps an offbeat example, but I think it demonstrates what I mean.

> As far as I know, there was no preexisting mass-energy, spacetime, or anything else.

If there was no spacetime then there is no possibility of "something" being "from" "Nothing" in a temporal sense. Maybe you mean a causal sense, as in 1 following from 0. I don't see why a God is a necessary or evenly certain explanation based particularly on such a factor however.

> Thomas Nagel: "If we came to believe that our capacity for objective theory (e.g., true beliefs) were the product of natural selection, that would warrant serious skepticism about its results."

I would contend that consciousness and evolutionary development were entwined, rather than consciousness being something separate that came after. Rather it formed in degrees like leaves on branches, rather than something simply sitting on top, metaphorically speaking.

> Scientists admit the implausibility of the emergence of an RNA replicator from a pool of polynucleotides by a purely random process. Joyce and Orgel believe that the de novo appearance of oligonucleotides on the abiotic Earth would have been a near miracle.

Again, I'm not arguing that the process is purely random (though I think there's room for some randomness, and that this doesn't conflict with intelligence as I stated earlier, depending of course on how you define intelligence). The process has some degree of pathology/propensity towards staying alive for example. And Again, I'm not arguing that abiotic Earth is necessarily likely either. The early earth could have a certain degree of consciousness in a panpsychism sense (different level of consciousness from ours obviously) without being the product of a Christian God.

> Then you shouldn't use the term "pantheism," because it portrays a different concept than you are describing. Pantheism is uniting reality with divinity, not a quasi-consistent unity in diversity boasting some elements that aren't unified at all.

What about Allan Watts's Idea about the universe being a God that plays hide and seek with itself? Just as you can have a person with conflicting inclinations and thoughts, a pantheistic universe can be a kind single yet impersonal organism attempting to balance itself out. Going back to ideas like Gaia theory (I'm not sure whether I support it, but using it as an example) a world is perhaps depicted, that, in an imperfect state, compromises itself and regulates itself, which may lead to internal conflict.

> it's still self-contradictory to have a pan-everything system in conflict with itself (nature's beneficence vs. nature's destructive power). A kingdom divided against itself can't stand.

The conflict between beneficence and destructive power might be a result of a falling into excess of a particular part of reality, (too little heat is bad, so is too much, for example) which the organism then seeks to correct. You might be right. Maybe pantheism isn't the right term. All I'm doing is showing alternative ideas that are compatible with fine tuning that don't have the difficulties that Christianity has to face (the problem of why a personal God cannot in his power prevent what he sees as bad, why he doesn't reveal himself in certain ways/situations, etc).
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.

Postby jimwalton » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:02 pm

I've really been enjoying the conversation, but we seem to be starting in a cyclical pattern, no longer making progress in the discussion. I have tossed out dozens of articles that lead me to believe that in the search for truth, theism is a far stronger case than naturalism. You're unpersuaded, and that's your prerogative and conviction. It may not be of much value to continue this pattern.

Perhaps it would be wiser at this point to revert back (About 2 weeks ago) to something in your original premise: "As a result, [Jesus being] an alien or superhuman claiming to be the creator of the universe, but not actually being so, is a distinct possibility."

By "alien," do you mean an extraterrestrial visitor from another planet?

I was at a conference 7 months ago where Jennifer Wiseman (the executive director of the Hubble telescope) was speaking (she's a Christian, by the way, as is Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, who also spoke there). She readily admits that there are tens of thousands of planets circling stars elsewhere in the galaxy, and that most stars have at least one planet. She said, "We have a tendency to jump to full and intelligent civilizations elsewhere, but from a scientific perspective, we are most likely to find microbial life." She wondered about how intelligent life would know we are here and how would it get to us, given that the distances of travel in the solar system would seem to be prohibitive of such a visit, and that such distances would also be barriers to their communication with their home. (Even in our own solar system, it takes years for a probe to travel, and the communications have considerable delay.) And if Earth took 4.5 billion years to evolve to the life forms we have, how long ago would such life forms have had to have evolved long before ours in order to be that superior to ours in technology to launch such a probe in our direction? And how did they know we were even here?

Then Dr. Stephen Freeland (evolutionary biologist) spoke. He said we also have to ask why such an effort (alien life visiting us) would be mounted. Since the 6 (possibly 4) chemical elements form life (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, and sulfur), and these 6 are the most abundant chemicals in the universe, we know that aliens wouldn't come to steal our chemicals. Whatever they want, they most likely have it.

While anything is possible, again we are playing with probabilities and plausibilities. What is your theory about Jesus, and why, in your perspective, is that so much stronger than perceiving Jesus as divine?

And if Jesus was an alien, why did he come and what did he accomplish (of benefit for his source world)?

As far as "superhuman" is concerned, I'm curious how such superhuman traits came upon him and from what source (since you don't believe in God)?
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.

Postby Book Mitten » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:16 pm

> As far as "superhuman" is concerned, I'm curious how such superhuman traits came upon him and from what source (since you don't believe in God)?

I'm undecided on God, not in unbelief or belief as such. In terms of superhuman traits, or alien motivations (alien isn't the only possibility, there's demi gods, terrestrial superhumans, etc) I don't fully know (or believe either way). I don't believe that I have to know. Creatures like these wouldn't necessarily be seeking to make themselves transparent. Because of the fact that (presumably, at least for Christians) they are incomplete in comparison to God, they won't have the burden of justifying themselves the way a creator God like the biblical one will do. Keep in mind that the biblical God seeks a relationship with us. If he is powerful he will be capable of convincing me (without force or hypnotism) to persuade me that he is morally upright (which he is claimed to be by Christians). My observation of the world leads me to believe such a God is doubtful in moral authority, since atrocities occur and he stands and does nothing. This is part of why I find the fine tuning argument suspect. A more deceptive or indifferent superhuman, who is less powerful/knowledgeable and didn't create the universe, therefore seems a worthy contender as explanation.

> What is your theory about Jesus, and why, in your perspective, is that so much stronger than perceiving Jesus as divine?

I don't have a fully formed theory. Jesus seems to me someone who had some good ideas and some bad ones. He said that people should hate their families, which I think is bad, even if some of his other ideas were good. For me, the kind of divinity Christians espouse needs more than that.

> I have tossed out dozens of articles that lead me to believe that in the search for truth, theism is a far stronger case than naturalism.

I don't think our discussion is cyclical. It's just a case of interpreting data as well as citing it. Why does the universe seem fine tuned? Or perhaps more aptly, how? Is it because of our adaption? or providence? Or ecosystems that are alive in some form themselves? I'm not sure the only two options are theism or naturalism either, though I'm also not sure which position I would most likely take.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.

Postby jimwalton » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:18 pm

Let's tackle the problem of evil in brief. This isn't the first time you've brought it up ("since atrocities occur and he stands and does nothing").

1. Evil and suffering can exist simultaneously with an "omni-" God as long as such evil and suffering have the possibility of good. For instance, a surgeon causes great pain and suffering, but his aim is to heal. Isn’t this surgeon both benevolent and the cause of suffering? The same is true of an oncologist who uses radiation and chemotherapy. These doctors can cause severe pain and suffering to achieve their ends. Yet I would assert that God is not the cause of suffering, but can still allow it to exist as long as there is the possibility of some good or benefit from it, which there is. Those who argue against this would be required to show that evil and suffering NEVER bring benefit, a position that is simply untenable.

2. Evil and suffering can be allowed by an “omni-“ God where free will is necessary for humanity, which it is. Most suffering is caused by man’s inhumanity to man. What is required for God to stop that—the decision not to relieve the suffering? He must take control of our bodies lest we cause harm to another. He must drive for us so no one is injured. He must make sure we never punch, trip, shoot, etc. another. We by necessity need to be robots in God’s hands if there is never to be any inhumanity or accident (pain and suffering).

But then He must also control our minds, for much suffering is caused by words, insults, deprecation, verbal abuse, and even misunderstanding of innocent speech. God has to control our minds, our thoughts and attitudes, our speech, and our responses to decide to relieve suffering.

In other words, God has to steal away all of what makes us human to preserve us from man-to-man suffering. We cannot think on our own, move on our own, decide on our own, love, forgive, be generous, etc. All of these things become meaningless because we’re not doing them—God is making us do it.

3. Evil and suffering can be allowed by an "omni-“ God because a dynamic world is superior to a static one. We will never truly be able to flawlessly predict weather because there will always be variables in the system we can’t see or control (the Butterfly Effect). You can balance a salt shaker on its edge in a restaurant, but it won’t stay there forever. Some force (a truck going by, a breeze, some micro-movement) will eventually cause it to fall. God has created a dynamic world because of its far superiority to a static one. Our Earth is an example. Earthquakes relieve pressure in the tectonic plates—necessary for our survival. Sometimes people get injured in earthquakes, but that doesn’t make earthquakes evil. Without earthquakes we’d pop like a cork and all die. Same with volcanoes and tornadoes. They serve a dynamic function, and can’t be removed without removing life.

Consider the dynamic nature of our bodies. Brain injuries can somewhat repair because neurons are dynamic and can create new routes around areas of infarction. Hearts can grow new blood vessels around areas of injury. This is not only good, but essential. Take it further: our brains work the way they do because our thoughts are dynamic, not static. We can be creative and solve problems because of the dynamic nature of our brains. In other words, without dynamism, there would be no science and no reasoning. We wouldn’t be able to think because all brain activity would be static and determined.

But if dynamism is necessary for life and vitality, we also recognize the dark side of dynamism. People get killed in earthquakes. The reasoning process is sometimes used to plan injury to another. Is God to blame for this? No. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too. If free will and dynamism are beneficial and necessary, and yet they have a dark side (I can use my fist to injure just as easily as to hold or to give), a beneficent, knowledgeable, and powerful person can allow the dark side as long as ultimately the good outweighs the bad, the dynamism is of more benefit than harm, suffering can possibly lead to growth and good, and my humanity allows me to truly think, to love, to forgive, and to learn—which is exactly the case.

4. In other words, we come to a point where we can actually see the benefits of evil (not that God perpetrates evil for its benefits; rather, He can use evil to beneficial ends). We can look at the horrible aspects of the Roman Empire (slave pens), but we can also see the benefits that Rome brought to culture and history (Law, travel, trade). While evil is always with us, and horrific it is, without the Roman Empire we would miss out on all the good it brought that outweighed the awful (slavery went away, law did not). Some of the most evil parts of history have actually brought about the most benefit (Nazi Germany motivated an alliance of good nations and resulted in NATO and the United Nations). Surgery brings healing; radiation destroys cancer; dynamism allows science, free will allows love. Love conquers evil. Is is just possible that evil is not the malefaction of an immoral God, or a testament to his un-beneficence, destructive knowledge, or impotent power, but a necessary element in life that makes good rise to what it is? As Frodo said about Gollum: he was evil, and trouble, but he had a part to play in their quest.

Therefore God is not the epitome of evil for “electing to do nothing” in these situations. Instead, God allows evil to happen because a world that allows evil is in many respects far superior than a world that does not, and as long as evil and suffering are ultimately outweighed by good in the universe, an “omni-“ God would choose no other path.

But we are not to think that God delights in evil, perpetrates it, or ignores it. The Bible tells a very different tale—that God treats evil not as a compatriot but instead as an enemy. When something bad happens, God is right in the mix to show a noble way through it, to teach strength and courage by it, to bring people together in the midst of it, and to bring whatever good is possible out of even the most horrific events and experiences.

Not only that, but God shares our suffering as a companion in grief and pain, not aloof and uncaring. To show that evil is not the undoing of us, that suffering will not have the final word, that pain is not meaningless, and that ultimately good will triumph, God enters our pain and experiences it with us. This is not a being who is emotionally needs or psychopathic, but an omnibenevolent, loving, relational God of hope and healing.

As awful as it is, suffering has a unique and necessary place in life. God knows about its existence, but knowledge is not causative. Because God can see all doesn’t mean God causes all. The Bible is quite clear that many things happen that God has not perpetrated. God is omnipotent, but to stop evil would be to steal away our humanity, the Earth’s ability to exist, and even reason and science itself. God is omni-benevolent, but to stop all suffering would actually result in greater harm than greater good.

That's the short version.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.

Postby Book Mitten » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:59 pm

Thank you kindly for such an in depth response. I will give this in depth thought and feedback which it deserves, but to do so I must answer (and potentially discuss) in sections.

The first point I'd like to make is that difficulty is not the same as evil and suffering. I would argue that a world without any difficulty in fact creates suffering of a different kind; a sort of numbed, boredom suffering. Many people would lament the absence of interests they have which are difficult: athletics, games, art, etc.

> He must make sure we never punch

Boxing can be an activity people enjoy for example. It doesn't have to go into the excess that is often present in evil.

That's the first point. Feel free to respond and we can discuss just this one at the moment if you want. In any case, my other responses will be on their way.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.

Postby jimwalton » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:59 pm

> difficulty is not the same as evil and suffering

Agreed.

> Boxing can be an activity people enjoy for example. It doesn't have to go into the excess that is often present in evil.

Also agreed. I was speaking, however, of punching meant to harm and injure, punching as an act of violence (as opposed to sport), in contrast to a hand used for benefit and help.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.

Postby Book Mitten » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:29 pm

> As awful as it is, suffering has a unique and necessary place in life. God knows about its existence, but knowledge is not causative. Because God can see all doesn’t mean God causes all. The Bible is quite clear that many things happen that God has not perpetrated.

Knowledge alone doesn't necessarily mean causation, but knowledge combined with omnipotence and sovereignty in creation does, in my opinion. Of course, you might take an open theist position and/or say that God cannot fully know the nature of something that hasn't yet been created. The problem remains of evil being perpetuated as it occurs however. I wouldn't allow certain atrocities to continue for months or years, as many acts of evil do. Neither would a good detective or officer that does their job well in preventing crimes like rape, torture, etc.

> Not only that, but God shares our suffering as a companion in grief and pain, not aloof and uncaring.

The issues with this are

A.) If he shares in suffering then he will have intuitive knowledge of how bad it is.

B.) His lack of aloofness in this domain would conflict with his elusiveness elsewhere

C.) Simply sharing in suffering doesn't cure the problem for many issues around the world. It may be inspiring to many that have heard of it, but there are many who don't. There are arguably others who also suffer for a longer amount of time (months, years, etc). Depending on your views on the trinity, God might not have had to suffer on the cross, but could have used supernatural power to avoid it. Many people are unable to do so. You might argue that a price must be paid for evil, but punishment should be preventative more than retributive, in my opinion.
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