Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell

[Newbie]

Knowing that hundreds of people lived and died before Christianity, what was their fate? What happened to all the believers in Buddhism, Hinduism, or Zoroastrianism before Christ? Are they exempt from the word of God that says one must accept Jesus Christ into his heart to be saved? Or are they burning in hell because Jesus didn't die for their sins yet?

[jimwalton]

In Romans 5.13, Paul says "before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law." The accountability factor is linked with the information. The implication is that God is fair: people who know nothing will not be held accountable for what they don't know; people who know a little will be accountable for what they did with what they know, and so also with people who know a lot.

Also, Deut. 1.39 speaks of children who didn't know any better, and they wouldn't be judged, as were the adults who did know better. Again, the idea is that God takes everything into account and makes a fair decision.

Now, sin was still in the world before the Law of Moses, but it is accounted for differently. For instance, in Romans 1.18 we find that God's takes account of people who know the truth but suppress it, i.e., who go against their conscience, or who know what is right to do, and yet don't do it.

[Newbie]

See, that seems quite strange to me. This "all-loving creator" seems pretty selfish to me. If his morals are perfect (and they better be to judge the morals of the rest of humanity), then why is his only standard for getting into heaven that you accept his existence?

You're the creator of the universe. You gave all human beings free will, including the mental capacity to believe in you or not; you left them a very complex and confusing document to decipher, knowing that people would have a logical argument against it. Where is the love? Without confirmatory bias, can you honestly tell me you would judge people on how they decided to interpret the book you wrote, or that they lived a generally good life? I don't think you would.

Also, Obviously God is infinite. He created the earth and all the humans that inhabited it. Why would he let people do whatever they want for thousands and thousands of years and then one day say "Alright, now I'm changing my standards for eternal salvation." Doesn't seem very 'fair' at all to me.

[jimwalton]

Great questions, and a good discussion. Thank you.

Let's start with a more correct assumption. The standard for getting into heaven is that you have a love relationship with him. God is love, and he wanted more children. So he made us, blessed us, made us co-regents (side-by-side kings and queens) with him in taking care of what he made. He created the world as his temple, so to speak, where he would make himself known to the people he made, and they would be his priests and priestesses, in fellowship with him, understanding him and in communication with him (that's was a priest was and did). But humans didn't want that, and made a choice to rebel against him and reject him and his ways. So he initiated a plan to restore the relationship.

The humans kept getting worse and worse, making terrible decisions and, frankly, ruining the world and each other. God initiated the next phase of his plan. The rebellion continued to separate oneself from God, and God continued the effort to reconcile people to himself. Those who wanted to be reconciled were freely admitted. Those who didn't weren't forced.

The world kept getting worse. God eventually wrote down his contract with people so it would be, uh, legal, so to speak. (Any contract has to be written to be legitimate.) That's what the Bible is: God's contract (covenant) with us. Here's what it says, in a nutshell: "I love you. I made you. You left me. I want you back. Anyone who wants to come back, may. I will freely accept you, and I will bless you. Anyone who doesn't want to come back doesn't have to, but apart from me, you just don't realize how unpleasant that's going to be. I know I can't force you, but please come back."

Just like our educations (grade K - college and beyond), it's progressive in understanding. God's "contract" is no different. First it was just word of mouth. Then he wrote it down. Then he sent people (prophets) to help, guide and warn. Then he sent Jesus.

The standard has always been the same: God wants a loving relationship with his people. He wants to love you, and he wants love in return. For those who chose to love him, he gives them his own nature, transforming them (even here on earth) into beings that can live with him forever. For those who chose to reject him, he lets them have their way, and eventually they will be separated from him forever where they never have to see him again. And for those who don't have a chance to know him, there will be allowances of all kinds and shapes that will make it fair.

[Newbie]

Your argument seems like a bit of a stretch to me in some sense. This is God. This is the guy that created us, he knew our imperfections. God knows everything! He knew we would rebel. It sounds like he was going through a moral struggle within himself in your argument. That's not something he would do, is it?

[jimwalton]

I guess I didn't communicate well if I made it seem as if God was having some kind of a moral struggle. Yeah, there was nothing of the kind. You're right that he created us and knew our imperfections. The plan was made before creation even took place (1 Pet. 1.20; Eph. 1.4). History is the record of him playing it through.

Where's the moral struggle? I'm trying to understand your perceptions.

[Newbie]

Back to what you said before. You make things sounds so peaceful. Eventually they will be separated from him? You mean doomed to eternal damnation in hell?

[jimwalton]

You need to understand that hell isn't fire. Hell is separation from the life, mercy, grace, and love of God. How can a writer possibly communicate the awfulness of that? The common choice is the Bible is one of the awfullest suffering known to humans: burning and fire. So the Bible consistently (though not exclusively) uses that image to convey what hell is like. The only hell that is honestly fire is the one prepared for the Devil and his angels. They are the ones who will truly burn.

As far as people, you need to know that people choose hell. It's more accurate to picture God at the judgment saying, "Do you love me, and would you like to spend eternity with me?" And when anyone answers, "Hell, no," then he says, "OK, go then." No one goes to hell kicking and screaming. C.S. Lewis, in The Great Divorce, said, "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened."

You make it sound as if God is joyfully tossing people there, who are screaming for mercy. Not accurate. Hell is the place for people who want nothing to do with God, and he won't force them to be with him.