Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell

[Six Sevens]

I get it, heaven vs. hell, good vs evil, but if you think about the story, Lucifer was a fallen angel, he was sent to run hell after thinking he was as good/better than God.

Why would he torture people for having the same view point? Tonnes of people who go to Hell (if you believe it) aren't bad people, many of them would just be people who never heard about Christianity, died too young to accept Jesus, or just atheists that are still good people.

I always thought Hell would just be a different Heaven. Like sure, its ran by the devil, but the devil is not this sadistic evil torture hungry person, hes just a dude that succumbs to temptation. Why would he torture people for being exactly like him?

[jimwalton]

> but if you think about the story, Lucifer was a fallen angel, he was sent to run hell after thinking he was as good/better than God.

First off, we know precious little about the origins of Satan or the cause of him being removed from God's presence. We don't know that he had been an angel (there are many kinds of spirit beings). We don't that he wanted to be God (Isa. 14 is no longer interpreted that way. It has for a long time been interpreted to be speaking of the king of Babylon, not of Satan, but traditions are tough to break). We don't know that he was sent to hell (In the end times he will be thrown into the lake of fire, but there's no reason to think he is now in hell).

> Why would he torture people for having the same view point?

Second, Satan does not rule in hell. There is no reason to think he is there now, but when he is thrown into the lake of fire, it will be as victim, not as ruler. Satan doesn't torture anyone in hell. Satan is not in charge there; he is not the judge or even the arbiter of punishment.

> I always thought Hell would just be a different Heaven.

There's no Bible teaching anywhere close to this thought.

> Like sure, its ran by the devil, but the devil is not this sadistic evil torture hungry person, hes just a dude that succumbs to temptation.

Hell isn't run by the devil. He doesn't torture people there. He is a being known primarily for deceiving others.

[Six Sevens]

So Hell is created by the being that is supposed to radiate love and happiness? just because someone was born a Muslim, now they are doomed for eternity just because of where they were born?

Jesus Christ that sounds petty as hell.

[jimwalton]

> So Hell is created by the being that is supposed to radiate love and happiness?

Hell was never created for people. The Bible is explicit that it was created for Satan and his minions (Mt. 25.41). People will only go there by their own insistence, viz., refusal to unite with the being who radiates love and happiness. If you repudiate love and happiness, you chose what's left: non-love and non-happiness.

> just because someone was born a Muslim, now they are doomed for eternity just because of where they were born?

No. What we're told about God's judgment is that it will be perfectly fair. God will not reward people more than what is right, and God will not punish people more than what is justified. We can be confident that God will not do anything in judgment that is unfair or undeserved. There is no need to get tied up in knots about how cruel God is or how unfair, since both are impossible.

People get so hung up on hell. As you read the Gospels, Jesus spoke often about hell, but no one ever asked him about it. Isn't that odd? Nobody said, "Hey, whoa, rewind. What happens to people who don't believe? What happens to people who never heard? What happens to people of a different religion? Isn't eternal judgment for temporal crime unfair? Explain this to us." Very interesting that no one did that. Here's the real deal about eternity, what the Bible is SO emphatic about: God will be perfectly fair with everyone. There is no need for anxiety that God has created a system of horror, that people will be judged unfairly, that injustices will be done and people will be sent inappropriately somewhere, or that God will somehow go against his attributes just to torture people.

Your thesis makes clear that you think hell is un-good and petty (that God can't be benevolent in that case), but that's a refutation of all the teaching of Scripture. Scripture is clear that God is both omnipotent and benevolent, so it erases the possibility that anything about hell is contrary to those attributes. Whatever concept of hell you have in your mind, if it negates God's omnipotence or His benevolence, it's a misunderstanding of hell. You can count on the fact that God will always do what's fair and what is the right thing to do.

Now, if you're so worried about being on the wrong side of judgment, then come to God. He invites you to Himself, to a love relationship of belonging and forgiveness. The choice is yours; free will is not only existent but also operative. So choose to come to God.

[Six Sevens]

I'm not worried, I left my church at 16 because my youth leader told me I needed to stop hanging out with my best friend because his older brother was gay. I've never been back into a church since, and I never will. I don't have a problem with the scripture, but the people are f***ing horrendous.

I know I am a good person, and if I die and find out there is a Heaven/Hell and I don't get to go to heaven because of how I left the church, then I wouldn't want to be there anyways.

[jimwalton]

I'm sorry about your bad experience. Your youth leader made a mistake. I know it's easy to blame all Christians, and even God, for the way you were treated, but a mistake by one doesn't mean all are guilty.

I always had respect for the Marines, but one of my friends became a Marine and he became a horrible person: arrogant, putting down everything and everybody, nasty. I was horrified. It made me hate all Marines. But that's not rational to think that one bad apple makes them all bad. It's been difficult for me to get over, though. Whenever I see a Marine, I'm prejudiced against him/her. It's not right, but my emotions seem to outvote my brain. I'm working on it because I know it's irrational.

You shouldn't discount Christianity because of one knucklehead. If you don't have a problem with Scripture, maybe there's truth to Christianity, even though this one person was horrendous.

If you know Scripture, then you know that if you die and DON'T go to heaven, this is not a desirable outcome. I think maybe you've left the church for the wrong reason (one bad experience). Perhaps we can talk more.

[Six Sevens]

that was the straw that broke the camels back, its the constant hypocrisy that really erks me. I've had many bad experiences with many churches growing up. It just isn't for me.

[jimwalton]

Yeah, i think a lot of people had that experience. I think that's why Dan Kimball wrote a book called, "They Like Jesus but Not the Church" (https://www.amazon.com/They-Like-Jesus-but-Church-ebook/dp/B000SEI18G/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=i+love+Jesus+but+not+the+church&qid=1562185193&s=gateway&sr=8-1). There's also one by Francis Spufford called "Unapologetic" (https://www.amazon.com/Unapologetic-Everything-Christianity-Surprising-Emotional/dp/0062300466/ref=sr_1_1?crid=HY5DTU5TNYXK&keywords=francis+spufford+unapologetic&qid=1562185315&s=gateway&sprefix=francis+spufford%2Caps%2C132&sr=8-1). There are, unfortunately, too many people who still respect Jesus and the Bible but have had it with the Church. It's too bad the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater.