Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell

[jimwalton]

Here's the scene: God invites each person into a loving relationship with himself. He has prepared a wonderful place for them, and leaves the door wide open. It doesn't make God barbarous that a person refuses to come in and chooses of their own free will to stay outside in the chaos. There's a Book of Life, but there's no Book of Death. But people who reject God choose to be separated from him, and they will go to a fate that was never meant to be theirs. We are free agents, and the choices we get to make regarding spiritual truths are real choices. God does not force anyone towards heaven or hell. Those choices are ours alone to make.

So here's the true scenario: God loves you (Jn. 3.16), knows that you can't save yourself (since no one is worthy), and so has made every provision for your rescue, offering it as a free gift to all comers. We must repudiate what separates us from God (repent of our sins), and turn to him in love (very different from "religion". It's much like a marriage ceremony, where you forsake all others to commit yourself in love to the one who loves you.) But since love must always be chosen and never forced, he informs and invites all people to come to him for rescue (salvation). The choice belongs to each individual, and it is always ours to make. No worthiness is involved, but only choice and love. All sincere comers will be accepted. All who refuse and choose to have nothing to do with God will endure the consequences of that decision: life without God, and eternity without God, if they get all the way to the end of life spurning his every invitation. They weren't created bound for hell, and Jer. 18.1-12 lets us know that they always have a legitimate choice to do as they wish with their lives. God will make adjustments according to their free-will choices. The path to hell is never a certainty unless the person in question makes it such.

The Bible pictures it this way: Let's suppose there are two doors, one leading to eternal separation from God, and one leading to eternal joy in his presence. Door #1 was only prepared for Satan and his sycophants, and door #2 was prepared for all people. Jesus is standing between the doors, and as people approach, he expresses his love for them and invites them to enter door #2 and bliss. But when people grab the handle to door #1, he cries out to them, "Don't do that. It's a terrible thing. You don't want to go there. Come this way, into door #2." But they choose to enter door #1 anyway. God is not to be blamed.

Hell is the place people choose to go who have no desire to share eternity with God. The Bible portrays it as a black and white thing: If you don't want God, the only other possibility is the absence of God. If you don't want life (since God is life), the only other possibility is death (the absence of life). If you don't want relationship with God, the only other possibility is separation from him (the absence of relationship). Hell isn't fire, which is just an image of its awfulness, but being separated from the presence of God. It's someone's choice to go there, not God's.

You fault God for even creating the environment of hell (likening him to Hitler as the one who made the rules). The Bible makes quite clear that hell wasn't made for people. Mt. 25.41 says that hell was specifically created solely for the devil and his angels. There was never intent on God's part that any human should go there. If someone goes there, it's because they refuse to be with God. Don't blame God. He isn't responsible for anyone's being in hell except the Devil and his angels.

> The difference with God is that the natural consequences are things he initiated.

But they aren't. If you take away the light you end up with darkness. If you refuse God's life, the only choice is to end up without life. God didn't create evil. God created good. Evil is the absence of good, and it wasn't God's doing.

> Its like the C.O. saying if you want to do your own thing, I literally will stab you in the back repeatedly because I told you not to.

This is horrible. That's not what it's like at all, if we're following what the Bible says. The Bible says if you want to do your own thing, you will suffer the consequences for your own decision. God warned Adam & Eve not to eat of the fruit, because it would cause a separation from his life. They chose separation, and so they lost his presence. He warned them; he didn't stab them in the back. This is an unjustifiable train of thought, and it's not what the Bible teaches.

> Revelation 20.12. When I read this, I inferred that because God was in charge of everything that occured in Hell.

There is no Bible text saying or implying that God is in charge of everything that occurs in hell. This verse says that no person will escape accountability for the choices they've made and how they have chosen to live their lives. God will have the knowledge to judge properly and the authority to assign people to their rightful destiny. That's what the verse says, not that God is the boss in hell.

[Honey n Biscuits]

Firstly, thanks for getting back to me and providing such a detailed response. I am confused regarding a few parts but overall I don't agree and these parts that confuse me are part of the reason why. I honestly just want people's reasoning. I'm here to make sense of other's thoughts and hopefully my own in my questions so it is made more clear why I have them in the first place. So I appreciate everything you have said regardless of our levels of agreement and I hope I made that evident in my interactions with you.

> Mt. 25.41 says that hell was specifically created solely for the devil and his angels

> Hell is the place people choose to go who have no desire to share eternity with God.

> The Bible says if you want to do your own thing, you will suffer the consequences for your own decision.

Looking at this alone I am having trouble following your logic. How is it that Hell was created for something else that has nothing to do with people then is a place people are sent when they die without following God?

Wouldn't that mean God changed something to send them there? Like even if partaking in the fruit causes people to be able to go there, why would he create something that would reverse his decision and the purpose of a place he made?

I don't think people can choose to go to a place that wasn't created for them to enter. If God doesn't want people there, then he can keep people out. And if all of the sudden people enter, he at the very least allowed that to happen.

And if the place wasn't designed for eternal punishment, then all of these things that listed in the Book of Life had to be created by someone specifically for torture there.

> You fault God for even creating the environment of hell (likening him to Hitler as the one who made the rules). The Bible makes quite clear that hell wasn't made for people. Mt. 25.41 says that hell was specifically created solely for the devil and his angels. There was never intent on God's part that any human should go there.

I know my analogy was unsettling so I'll stick to these questions. Most are based on the text I will quote above:

1. Who "runs" Hell?
2. If God created it for something else, how did it get repurposed without his consent?
3. If God isn't the ultimate authority on what happens there then does that mean he cannot control some things? Or does he choose not to control what happens in Hell?
4. If you believe God still is in charge of everything, including Hell, how is he not responsible for torture there?
5. If it has be explicitly stated that God is the "boss" for him to be able to affect what happens there, what verse leads you to believe that he legitimately has no control or authority over that?
6. If God is considered fair and just as well as the punishments for sin to you, why is it "bad" that he is the boss/in charge of that to you?

People can think something is bad when it isn't actually that way. Denying that he is responsible for things being the way they are in Hell when he is literally everywhere else because it looks bad to some people doesn't make sense to me.

People don't deny Jesus dying for his sin even though some people would say that he would rather murder his child/self than prevent people from eating a forbidden fruit by keeling it out of their reach permanently.

[jimwalton]

Glad to talk, and I'm glad to take debate out of it. I'm much more comfortable just sharing information and perspectives.

It was God's intent that people spend their lives and eternity with him. We don't know anything about the origin of Satan, what kind of being he is or how he got that way, apparently his antagonism towards God is intractable, and a place of total separation from God was planned for him and all spiritual beings that follow him. Hell was not prepared for humans. God is not of the desire that any human should enter there (2 Peter 3.9). Even in Jewish traditions destruction was not God's purpose for people (4 Ezra 8.59-60). Humans only go there if they insist on having nothing to do with God. Humans are choosing a fate that was not meant to be theirs.

> How is it that Hell was created for something else that has nothing to do with people then is a place people are sent when they die without following God?

There are only two choices: you are either with God (in love relationship, sharing his life) or you are not with God (not in relationship, not sharing his life). The latter is what we call hell. If you don't want to be with God, there's only one other option: not with God.

> Wouldn't that mean God changed something to send them there?

No. It's the place of separation from God designed for those who rebelled (Satan and his angels). But all humans who also choose to rebel against God are making the choice to be separated from him—to enter there also. God can't force people to love him because forced love isn't love at all, but rather slavery.

> I don't think people can choose to go to a place that wasn't created for them to enter.

It's more accurate to speak about relationships, because that's really what the Christian system is founded on. If you don't want to be in relationship with God, then God has to let you make the choice to not be in relationship with Him. Let's say, just for the sake of example, that God is everywhere except one room. If you want to get away from God, that one room is your only alternative.

> If God doesn't want people there, then he can keep people out.

Love can't be coerced or it isn't love. If God doesn't want people there, he can reveal himself to them (which he does), he can warn them (which he does), he can offer them all the good stuff (which he does), he can send people to teach them (which he does), and he can write all this down so everyone can have access to it (which he does). But he can't keep people out. They have to choose it themselves because it's all about relationship.

> And if the place wasn't designed for eternal punishment, then all of these things that listed in the Book of Life had to be created by someone specifically for torture there.

I don't believe hell is literal fire. Hell is not "One Fire Tortures All." Fire is just the image of untold suffering, which is what one will experience when separated from God. We have strong hints that there are different degrees of punishment in hell (totally unlike the different levels of hell as in Dante's Divine Comedy, which is not Scripture). The only torture going on is the agony of true separation from God. Don't picture it as a Medieval torture chamber with God laughing maniacally while he turns the screws another notch, or God stoking to fires to keep them going. Those are cartoonish images (not that you made them).

On to your other questions.

1. Who runs hell? No one does. There is no indication in the Bible that it's a corporation, kingdom, hierarchy, or management. There's nothing to "run." It's a state of relational separation, no management skills required. No one is the boss.

2. If God created it for something else, how did it get repurposed without his consent? Hell wasn't repurposed. That's the wrong way of looking at it. Suppose there were two doors. Door #1 was the door of a relationship with God. Door #2 was for the devil and his angels. People approach and go to door #2, and God says, "Don't go in there. That's not for you." But people go in anyway. Nothing was repurposed.

3. If God isn't the ultimate authority on what happens there then does that mean he cannot control some things? Or does he choose not to control what happens in Hell? There are lots of things God doesn't control. He doesn't make us sin. He doesn't perpetrate evil. He doesn't tempt people. He doesn't control the barbaric ways people treat other people.

There's nothing to "control" in hell. It's just the place of separation from God. Suppose your girlfriend or boyfriend breaks up with you, and it sends you into an emotional tailspin. It's just no helpful and incorrect to ask, "Who's controlling your agony?" Your agony is merely the result of that broken relationship.

4. If you believe God still is in charge of everything, including Hell, how is he not responsible for torture there? See above.

5. If it has be explicitly stated that God is the "boss" for him to be able to affect what happens there, what verse leads you to believe that he legitimately has no control or authority over that?

- Sin is rebellion and disobedience against God. A kingdom working against itself can't stand (Matt. 12.25). Transgression and sin are associated with death (Eph. 2.1). God can't be controlling sin.
- Ephesians 2.2 speaks of the ruler of the kingdom of the air. In other words, there is a spiritual being who has rule over acts of disobedience, and it isn't God.
- James 1.13-14 say that God doesn't tempt people to evil, they tempt themselves. It comes out of their own hearts. The text implies, then, that God is not the boss of our hearts, nor is he in control of the temptations that come from our hearts.

That should do to establish the point.

6. If God is considered fair and just as well as the punishments for sin to you, why is it "bad" that he is the boss/in charge of that to you? God is certainly the judge who is able to make sure the punishment is just. But that doesn't mean he's torturing you. It means he reserves the right and authority to restore you to himself after an appropriate amount of separation, IF that is what he is right in doing (there are many theories about whether hell is eternal for everyone or not, and how it ends if it does).

[Honey n Biscuits]

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions in such a thorough manner.

I'm glad I was able to make you feel more comfortable in answering. I could more gentle with my honesty so I am sorry if my analogies seemed too harsh. I won't deny that is how I feel though.

How you explained what you did makes sense. I suppose when I hear of place that leaves its occupants "gnashing their teeth", I think of extreme pain.

But emotional pain can literally cause physical pain, so I can see how you don't see it as a place where people are brutalized to various degrees.

I also see how you can see God as good with your vision of who God is via your mindset. I'm sure a lot of Christians and others love your explanations and perspectives for comfort because they are clearly well thoughtout and rely on scripture with context in mind.
I won't say I trust the Bible or am closer to believing God, but I will say that if I had someone like you around when I was losing my faith it may have been easier for me (in terms of stress, I think it was inevitable but perhaps it would have been stalled) for multiple reasons.

Thank you so much for your time, I really appreciated it. I learned a lot and I have a better understanding of how some well learned individuals manage to stay solid believers in Christianity/God.

I read and memorized a lot myself but it led to me and a lot of others walking away, so I guess when I go on here to read responses or ask questions I am looking for opinions held by people like you so this was a real treat.

Thank you again and I wish you the best!