Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell

[jimwalton]

> Why? Does he have an ego?

No, he knows that a relationship with Him is what will make life meaningful, fulfilling, and properly aligned.

> "Kai Nielsen" Well I disagree with him, that sounds vapid.

That's your prerogative, but it should motivate you to evaluate the logic of your position.

> But, like you said, god is unable to change the laws, cause he's not all-powerful.

Actually, that's not what I said. What I said is that we have to accurately define "all-powerful, and it doesn't mean "able to do self-contradictory, absurd nonsense." We have to see God both properly and logically, as we do all of reality.

>> God loves you and wants a relationship with you.

> Why do I have to sacrifice my earthly life for that?

What is being asked of you is that you come into a relationship that will make your life meaningful, fulfilled, and properly oriented. And yes, that does mean some things must be left behind and other things taken on. It's a change of direction, no doubt about that.

> What sins? Why are they bad?

Sins are bad because they separate us from God. Anything we do that creates barriers between us and God is detrimental to life.

> By sending me to hell?

You are the only one sending you to hell by your rejection of God. I've gone over this several times with you.

> Cernunnos

I have been able to observe that the worship of Cernunnos doesn't bring you fulfillment, joy, or meaning in life. Perhaps you'd be wise to reconsider whether he is a worthy deity. I see on Wikipedia (the quickest way to get at least some information) that very little is known about him.

I'm curious what draws you to him, and what is attractive about Cernunnosianism to you. I've never heard of him and don't know anything about him, so I'd be glad to learn something.

I notice he has some connection within modern-day Wicca. Are you Wiccan as well? Tell me about that.

> Why do I deserve to suffer? Why should I be tortured alongside Hitler? Why couldn't god just let me rest?

It's because you are repudiating the truth. Truth, by definition, is very narrow. Only 1 note on the piano is middle C. Among the infinite numbers, 2+2 only equals one of them: 4.

There are many theories about what happened to Amelia Earhart and who shot JFK, but once we find these things out (if we ever do), there will be only one truth.

> Why should I be tortured alongside Hitler?

I've mentioned this about 4 times now, this may be 5: God doesn't torture people. There's a difference between torture and torment. And you are choosing against God, so you are choosing continuation without life, love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, peace, and joy. That's your prerogative, but don't blame God for torturing you.

> Why couldn't god just let me rest?

God will do what is exactly and perfectly appropriate with you. He will not do anything that isn't precisely fair.

[Socks]

> No, he knows that a relationship with Him is what will make life meaningful, fulfilling, and properly aligned.

I didn't feel meaningful when I was christian, it was actually the worst time of my life.

> Anything we do that creates barriers between us and God is detrimental to life.

Why? Can god not change that?

> I've gone over this several times with you.

And I disagree with you, I think that your opinion is highly illogical and self-contradictory.

A real god would be able to do anything, that includes not making disbelievers go to hell.

> I'm curious what draws you to him, and what is attractive about Cernunnosianism to you. I've never heard of him and don't know anything about him, so I'd be glad to learn something.

Cernunnos is simply the Celtic interpretation of The Horned God, who exists in every religion on earth, he (The Horned God) is often a deity of wisdom, life, and nature, and in Cernunnos's case, animals.

This is what draws me to him, it's primal, he feels like a guiding fatherly figure, I've also dreamt of him multiple times.

> It's because you are repudiating the truth.

I don't think supposed ignorance should = horrible suffering.

> God will do what is exactly and perfectly appropriate with you. He will not do anything that isn't precisely fair.

So will he Annihilate me, or put me in hell? None of this makes sense, why aren't the rules more specific?

[jimwalton]

>> Anything we do that creates barriers between us and God is detrimental to life.

> Why? Can god not change that?

He has. He's done everything that is His to do. Even after we walked out on Him, He pursues us and doesn't want to let us go. He invites us into relationship with Him, and Jesus died to make that possible. All that's left is for you to respond with your free will. And if you won't do that, God can't force you. Free will that is forced isn't free; love that is forced isn't love.

You say you used to be a Christian, so I'm surprised you don't understand these things.

> A real god would be able to do anything, that includes not making disbelievers go to hell.

You still seem to think A can equal non-A.

> Cernunnos

Thank you for the information. Do you consider that Cernunnos has made you wise and given you life?

> I don't think supposed ignorance should = horrible suffering.

Ignorance would be a different matter. In your case it's repudiation.

> So will he Annihilate me, or put me in hell? None of this makes sense, why aren't the rules more specific?

The rules are quite specific. He will let you go where you have chosen to go, which is away from Him, in your case. It's not His preference, but you seem set on it despite my explanations and invitations.

[Socks]

> He invites us into relationship with Him, and Jesus died to make that possible.

No, I mean, why can't he let sinners into heaven?

> You say you used to be a Christian, so I'm surprised you don't understand these things.

I never asked questions as a Christian, it was kinda looked down upon in my family to do so.

> You still seem to think A can equal non-A.

No, that doesn't make sense, it's just word-salad.

> Thank you for the information. Do you consider that Cernunnos has made you wise and given you life?

Yes, after I began worshiping him I've started studying better, I definitely feel less depressed than I used to.

> Ignorance would be a different matter. In your case it's repudiation.

What do you mean?

> The rules are quite specific. He will let you go where you have chosen to go

Okay, and I've chosen not to go to hell.

[jimwalton]

> why can't he let sinners into heaven?

God is holy (completely separated; the essence of purity). Sin can't live in His presence. The only way for anyone to be with Him is if their sins are removed. The only way sins can be removed is by people voluntarily repenting of their sins, accepting the gift of Christ's salvation, and being forgiven. Someone who is still in their sins and doesn't want to be rid of them, in addition to this same person not wanting to be in God's presence, can't be let into heaven. They can't exist there.

> I never asked questions as a Christian, it was kinda looked down upon in my family to do so.

Ah, sorry to hear that. In my family we were encouraged to think, to ask questions, to research, and to discuss.

>> Ignorance would be a different matter. In your case it's repudiation.

> What do you mean?

It's not that you don't know about God, Jesus, salvation, and sin. You're not ignorant of these matters. Instead, you repudiate them. "I don't believe that." "God is cruel, not loving, by my observation." "I can't love a God who..." So you're not ignorant, by any means. You just reject the Christian narrative and believe system.

> Okay, and I've chosen not to go to hell.

The way to choose not to go to hell is to choose to love God. There are only two paths here: You either love God and choose to be in His presence and to accept His gift of salvation, or you choose to go to hell and be separated from His love and presence. Those are the two choices. There is no place in the middle where you choose not to go to hell but choose not to go to heaven, either.

[Socks]

> The only way sins can be removed is by people voluntarily repenting of their sins

Why do I have to go through the trouble? Can't god just purify me anyway?

> You just reject the Christian narrative and believe system.

It's god's fault for angering me.

> There are only two paths here: You either love God and choose to be in His presence and to accept His gift of salvation, or you choose to go to hell and be separated from His love and presence. Those are the two choices. There is no place in the middle where you choose not to go to hell but choose not to go to heaven, either.

Why? is there a force higher than god that prevents him from changing? Why is it so binary?

Heaven and Hell both sound equally horrible to me, if Christianity is true (Like I fear it is) I have absolutely no hope.

[jimwalton]

> Why do I have to go through the trouble? Can't god just purify me anyway?

It's all about a relationship. God CAN just purify you, but—big deal. It's all about a love relationship. You obviously don't want to be with God, so purification won't gain you what you're after. Only a love relationship with God will gain you what you're after.

> It's god's fault for angering me.

This is a one-sided perspective. You have to think in both directions: Have you grieved God? God loves you so deeply and wants you in His family. Every step of defiance and accusation (It's God's fault for angering me) just breaks His heart and causes Him so much agony.

I have no idea how old you are, but I have kids. When they were teenagers, they would say the nastiest, most hurtful things to us. "I hate you." "You don't care about me." "You don't understand." "I wish you weren't my parents." These kinds of things cut SO deeply.

A relationship goes both ways. You feel anger for how God has treated you. And what about what God feels for the things you say, feel, and believe?

> Why? is there a force higher than god that prevents him from changing?

There is no higher force. God can't go outside of reality and truth. Some things are the way they are because that's reality, and you can't change reality.

> Why is it so binary?

It's the nature of truth and reality. Some things are gradients, some are continuums, and some are binary. It's the way things are.

You seem to want to conform reality to your manner of thinkings, to life as you perceive it, to value judgments as you perceive them. But it's altogether possible that your thoughts and perspectives are limited, sometimes skewed by experiences, sometimes skewed by bias, and definitely partial at best. There's no particular reason that your view is complete enough to be the standard by which reality is defined and life is governed.

> if Christianity is true (Like I fear it is) I have absolutely no hope.

Fo all of our conversation, I have sense such deep and almost intractable pain in you, and it actually hurts my heart (even now I have this ache in my chest while I'm writing to you) for the pain you have suffered at the hands of others and for the pain you feel in your life—so much torment, anger, and hurt.

I could easily guess that the greatest aspect of that is your same-sex orientation, that has brought you pain in society, judgment from the Church, and disapproval by God. I get that. It's hard to imagine what it would feel like and how I would respond if someone had told me the deep love I feel for my wife was verboten, and that God would judge me for it—that I had to change to be "approved" or accepted. I get it.

If you've read Leviticus 20—the WHOLE chapter—, and if you're familiar with the teachings of the Bible, then you have seen that there's nothing unique about same-sex relationships. Jesus says that even one's love for parents can interfere with one's relationship with God. Paul says that even one's love for a spouse can interfere. As you well know, some people choose to remain celibate their entire lives if that's what it takes to know and honor God. (Now, let's not make the mistake that God is asking us all to do that and that He's just a cruel monster to give us a sex drive and then ask us to deny it.) The point is that knowing and being found in him is the ultimate value in life that trumps ANY human relationships, any natural drives, any natural orientations. There are things that ALL of us have to set aside as the lesser things of this world so that we can know Christ and the power of His resurrection. These things we have to set aside are things that are natural for us, things we were born with, and sometimes things that sound like they could be enjoyable (as some people might say, like sex with multiple partners, or sex whenever we want it, or sex parties, hook-ups—living La Vida Loca). So many people are drawn to adultery, to pre-marital sex, to multiple partner sex, and, frankly, lots of other things. We are such a sexually-driven culture. We infuse sex into everything, and we enculturate the young that you're only fulfilled when you indulge your sexual desires and fantasies, and that someone is wrong to tell you no.

When I stop to think about it, it's such a distorted view of life—putting so much value on sex and sexual expression. We've made ourselves into sexual monsters and predators, sexual machines with sexual values. And yet we all know that sex (though fantastic) is a very temporal and often selfish pursuit. That can't be what life is all about, yet in the Western world have made life that. It's just...so...shallow and distorted.

Christianity offers a deeper view of life, reaching much deeper than sex or pleasure, deeper than self or emotions. Christianity offers not just "a god up there" for worship and honor, but a God who has walked in my shoes, who suffers my pain, and who offers to redeem me from it. It's a completely different worldview, and one that I have found to be not only enticing and valuable but also true. My hope is not in some pie in the sky, or an idiotic flying spaghetti monster, but in meaning grounded in truth and reality, and a God who is not only transcendent but also imminent, who is part of life but not corrupted by it. My hope is grounded in the historicity of Christ's death and resurrection. What demands that makes of me are multiple, as they are for you or anyone else, though those demands are different for each one of us. All of us, though, are asked to deny ourselves and find ourselves in God—an orientation that isn't natural for any of us.

[Socks]

> Have you grieved God? God loves you so deeply and wants you in His family. Every step of defiance and accusation (It's God's fault for angering me) just breaks His heart and causes Him so much agony.

So why did he create hell? Why will he let me go there?

> I have no idea how old you are

17

> But I have kids. When they were teenagers, they would say the nastiest, most hurtful things to us. "I hate you." "You don't care about me." "You don't understand." "I wish you weren't my parents." These kinds of things cut SO deeply.

I've never talked to my parents like that, but god's not my dad, my parents have never said that they wanted me dead, my parents will never burn me, what kind of loving parent would? God seems more abusive than anything.

> And what about what God feels for the things you say, feel, and believe?

I don't know, but he apparently doesn't feel bad enough to "save" me.

> There is no higher force. God can't go outside of reality and truth. Some things are the way they are because that's reality, and you can't change reality.

Was it not immoral for god to create an existence that cannot change?

> For all of our conversation, I have sense such deep and almost intractable pain in you, and it actually hurts my heart (even now I have this ache in my chest while I'm writing to you) for the pain you have suffered at the hands of others and for the pain you feel in your life—so much torment, anger, and hurt.

Thank you.

> I could easily guess that the greatest aspect of that is your same-sex orientation

And my disabilities, like Asthma, Dyspraxia, and Autism.

> Jesus says that even one's love for parents can interfere with one's relationship with God.

I know, I read that one as a child, it angered me, I felt like god was telling me not to love my parents.

> The point is that knowing and being found in him is the ultimate value in life that trumps ANY human relationships, any natural drives, any natural orientations.

Why was I so unhappy as a Christian, then?

> So many people are drawn to adultery, to pre-marital sex, to multiple partner sex, and, frankly, lots of other things.

Well I, and most gay people, are monogamous, so I don't see how this matters.

> We infuse sex into everything, and we enculturate the young that you're only fulfilled when you indulge your sexual desires and fantasies, and that someone is wrong to tell you no.

I don't know where you're from, but sex is still a very taboo topic, it's still extremely and needlessly censored, and many children are given very wrong sexual educations that don't teach them what's important, mostly due to puritanical Christianity.

> We've made ourselves into sexual monsters and predators

How?

> That can't be what life is all about, yet in the Western world have made life that.

No, life isn't "Just about sex", I don't understand why so many of you people think this.

We want the right to get married and settle down, to be able to love without getting murdered.

> but a God who has walked in my shoes, who suffers my pain

How has god suffered my pain? He's never walked in my shoes, he's never been poor, he's never suffered before.

> It's a completely different worldview, and one that I have found to be not only enticing and valuable but also true.

I feel the same way about my religion.

It has taught me that all life has a place in the world, that we are children of the earth and we need to protect it, that good and evil are only concepts.

[jimwalton]

> So why did he create hell? Why will he let me go there?

God created hell for Satan and his angels, to punish them. Hell was not created for humans. People will only go there if they refuse the invitation to have a love relationship with God. But as I've said before, Christian teaching about hell is ambiguous and disputed. What we can say for certain is that God will be perfectly fair with people. He won't do anything that isn't exactly appropriate to their mind, heart, situation, and decisions.

> God seems more abusive than anything.

Then I'm guessing you're only reading a few verses in the Bible and coming to the wrong conclusions based on reading 1/1000th of the text.

> I don't know, but he apparently doesn't feel bad enough to "save" me.

He DOES feel bad enough to save you, but since it's a love relationship, it needs your participation in it.

> Was it not immoral for god to create an existence that cannot change?

It was not immoral for God to create an existence based in reality. But there are lots of things about existence that *can* change.

> I know, I read that one as a child, it angered me, I felt like god was telling me not to love my parents.

See, I don't know how that happens. What God was saying is, "You love your parents to the moon and back. But you need to love God to the constellations and back." There was NOTHING in His words to lead you to, "Don't love your parents."

> Why was I so unhappy as a Christian, then?

For me to find that out would take many more conversations. I wouldn't dare make a guess when I know so little about you, your upbringing, or your circumstances.

> Well I, and most gay people, are monogamous, so I don't see how this matters.

It isn't a matter of monogamy or multiple partners, but rather a matter of sexual relationships that are very natural to them but don't reflect the nature and character of God.

>> We've made ourselves into sexual monsters and predators

> How?

Child sexual abuse is on the rise. Pornography and the objectification of people is ubiquitous. Sex trafficking is a global problem. Sex slavery is a global problem. I'm surprised you don't know "how" we've made ourselves into sexual monsters and predators.

> I don't understand why so many of you people think this.

"You people"???? Oh my.

I said "Life isn't just about sex" because all you have to do is (1) look at the ads, (2) look at the porno and trafficking industries, and (3) see how many times on this forum people ask questions as if sex is the meaning of life and the end-all and do-all of behavioral morality.

> How has god suffered my pain? He's never walked in my shoes, he's never been poor, he's never suffered before.

Jesus was raised in a poor family, and as an adult had no home and no financial means. Jesus was ALWAYS poor.

Jesus has never suffered? He was raised with people looking down on him because they considered his mother a whore and a liar. During the 3 years of his ministry he was laughed at, mocked, put down, and there were several attempts on his life. In his final days he was betrayed by a close friend, deserted by his followers, suffered a mock trial by people intent on killing him, and finally beaten mostly the death and then crucified though He was innocent. And you think He's never suffered before?

> we are children of the earth and we need to protect it

I agree that we have a responsibility to take good care of the Earth.

> good and evil are only concepts.

From our multiple conversations, you've already shown me you don't believe this. You believe God is truly evil. You believe that Christianity is evil. You believe that the way Christians have treated you is wrong. Oh, you definitely believe that good and evil are realities and not only concepts.

[Socks]

> People will only go there if they refuse the invitation to have a love relationship with God.

Why? If god constructed hell, why can he not prevent people from going there? Where would dammed souls go if hell didn't exist?

> What we can say for certain is that God will be perfectly fair with people. He won't do anything that isn't exactly appropriate to their mind, heart, situation, and decisions.

I'm sorry to say that I can't trust god.

> Then I'm guessing you're only reading a few verses in the Bible and coming to the wrong conclusions based on reading 1/1000th of the text.

And what would the other 10000th of the text say?

> He DOES feel bad enough to save you, but since it's a love relationship, it needs your participation in it.

Why? I would honestly prefer it if he forced me.

> But there are lots of things about existence that can change.

Like what?

> See, I don't know how that happens. What God was saying is, "You love your parents to the moon and back. But you need to love God to the constellations and back." There was NOTHING in His words to lead you to, "Don't love your parents."

Yes there was, he told me to love him more than my parents, which is unacceptable.

> For me to find that out would take many more conversations. I wouldn't dare make a guess when I know so little about you, your upbringing, or your circumstances.

I feel like if god loved me, he wouldn't have commanded my death, made me poor, made my dad get arrested, or all my friends leave me.

> Child sexual abuse is on the rise.
> Sex trafficking is a global problem.
> Sex slavery is a global problem.

I don't see what those have to do with me or most people.

> Pornography and the objectification of people is ubiquitous.

That's consensual, so I don't see the issue

> look at the ads

That's the result of living under a capitalist Corporatocracy.

> look at the porno

There's nothing wrong with that.

> see how many times on this forum people ask questions as if sex is the meaning of life and the end-all and do-all of behavioral morality.

Can you show me 3 of these?

> Jesus was raised in a poor family, and as an adult had no home and no financial means. Jesus was ALWAYS poor.
> Jesus has never suffered? He was raised with people looking down on him because they considered his mother a whore and a liar. During the 3 years of his ministry he was laughed at, mocked, put down, and there were several attempts on his life. In his final days he was betrayed by a close friend, deserted by his followers, suffered a mock trial by people intent on killing him, and finally beaten mostly the death and then crucified though He was innocent. And you think He's never suffered before?

That doesn't count because it was his choice and he's a god (Something I can never be), it was barely 1/100th of his existence, he ultimately suffered no scars from that experience.

> I agree that we have a responsibility to take good care of the Earth.

From a Christian perspective, why? God's just going to throw it in the garbage someday.

> From our multiple conversations, you've already shown me you don't believe this. You believe God is truly evil. You believe that Christianity is evil. You believe that the way Christians have treated you is wrong. Oh, you definitely believe that good and evil are realities and not only concepts.

Of course good and evil are real, but they were created by us, there's no concept of Sin, no heaven or hell, I believe that there's just a single afterlife.