Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell

[Newbie]

I think this has always been one of my biggest sticking points.

When I was a little kid, terrified of hell and social, familial exclusion, and I would spend hours praying, tearfully, then go to my mom and hopefully say, “I asked Jesus into my heart! I'm a Christian!” and she would look at me skeptically and dead seriously say, “Are you sure?” Or as I lost my first grandparents and was assured that it was pretty unlikely they were in heaven.

As I told you before, I see the situation thusly: If I were to accept this dogma as reality, it instantly becomes a dire us-them. If now I'm a Christian, how can I walk around existing while doubting the eternal consequence awaiting my loved-ones, family, friends, neighbors? How can I not become a manic zealot, hounding them day and night to rectify themselves spiritually if there's really heaven, hell, etc.? How can I bear the idea that my children might not share eternity with me?

I can’t.

I don’t see love and choice. I see terror and self-preservation, followed by holier-than-thou apathetic existence.

[jimwalton]

I know that this just wrenches your gut, since we’ve talked about it before. And I know Christians can be quite flippant about hell, easily brushing off people’s eternity in pain with a quick, “Oh, well, that’s just the way it is." Like, ouch, don't you have any feelings? Do you accept the eternal pain of another so easily?

I’ll readily admit to you that hell is one of the most difficult pieces of what the Bible teaches. It’s truly a gut-heaving teaching. One cannot but react to it in any way but big gulps, big eyes, and a churning stomach, every time.

I find it interesting that the Old Testament says almost nothing about it. It was virtually unknown to them. The only place it shows up is Dan. 12.2: “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” It shows consistency with what Jesus taught.

Speaking of Jesus, he is where we get almost all our information about hell. He taught about it dozens of times. Paul never used the word, ever, though he did talk about the fate of the wicked. Revelation talks about it a little, but doesn’t give us much information. Isn’t it ironic that Jesus, the man known for teaching about love and loving all people, would teach so much about eternal suffering? Since I have so much respect for him and his teaching, I have to pay attention, and I have to digest why, and how to handle it as a human being with feelings, with love for family and friends, and with compassion for people.

Jesus, it's interesting to observe, never used hell as a weapon or to scare people. What seems to me, though, is that he did want to be honest and at least let people know about it. It would be weird, if there was such a place as hell, for people to die and stand in front of him, and as he pronounced judgment, say, “Oh, did I forget to mention one small detail?” Big oops.

But your question comes from the viscera: How can I possibly be with other people without launching into a fanatical frenzy of fear and hounding? How can I bear that many people I know and love will be in weeping and teeth-gnashing? How is this “love” and “choice” coming from a man known and respected the world over, for 2000 years, for love and choice?

John the Baptist starts with such teaching, very early on (Mt. 3.12), but we might expect such from a blustery fire-and-brimstone prophet like John, in the model of Elijah. Jesus doesn’t waste anytime getting to the subject himself, though, picking up the theme several times in the Sermon on Mount. “You’ve heard that murderers will be judged? They’re not the only ones” (Mt. 5.22). Jesus picks up the role of prophet without missing a beat. And, as I said, he teaches about hell dozens of times without batting an eye. That’s what we have to struggle to process.

I can picture only two possible scenarios: (1) God somehow takes a perverse pleasure about sending people to hell with a callous disregard and disengagement from any emotional bondage to the reality of what is happening, or (2) God somehow is filled with love and is crying as people are cast forth from his presence. Well, anyone who reads anything about the God of the Bible knows that the first choice is impossible, so somehow we must make sense of the second.

I think we have our own sentimental image of our loved ones ready to enter a place of eternal torment, and the only choice possible is to refuse to allow it to happen at any cost—any cost. I agree. Who wouldn't? There are several unrealistic elements to this picture that we must correct before proceeding:

1. God has both perfect love and perfect justice. The two are not competing values where one has to win out over the other. To be truthful we must show how they can both be present together to an infinite and non-contradictory extent.

2. The picture of people screaming in agony, floating around alone in a lake of fire has to be dismissed. The Biblical teaching of degrees of punishment cannot allow for this unrealistic portrayal. Despite many traditional evangelical beliefs, it shows a shallow and inaccurate reading of the “hell” texts.

3. We have to grasp that people go to hell by their own choice, not by God’s; that no one in hell has been sent there apart from their will; and that they will agree with God’s casting them there, for it’s the desire of their hearts, as weird as that may sound. After all, the sin of Adam and Eve, and the root of sin in all of us, is self: pride, independence, and personal power. People choose God or self. If it’s self, then, uh, it’s self.

Allow me to explain each point in sufficient detail to lead you to understanding.

1. Love is an act of the will, not an emotion. We choose to act in the interest of someone else. God loves us, and both will not and cannot interfere with our free will. To do so would be self-contradicting, because it isn’t love. All of have a choice in life: to align with God and become one with Him, or to choose not to align with God and be separate from Him. Like pregnancy, there’s no halfway. You either are or your aren’t. So to be consistent in his nature and not self-contradictory, he has to allow those who wish to be aligned with him to come, and he has to allow those who wish to be separate from him to do so also. As it turns out, these are the definitions of heaven and hell. Everything with God is based in relationship—even eternity. So his great act of love, as love is with all of us, is to allow us the freedom to choose (see also Rom. 1.22-23). As it turns out, it is also perfectly just, for in eternity the Bible is clear that God’s judgment over us is not based on our works, but our relationship. Those who choose to have the nature of Jesus (not those who are good) go to heaven, and those who choose not to have the nature of Jesus (not those who are “bad”) are allowed to remain separate from him. His justice aligns perfectly with his love in that everyone has the relationship with Him that they choose and spend eternity, in all fairness, in what they chose. Keep reading.

2. Hell is not, as I said, people floating in a sea of raging fire, screaming at the top of their lungs in sheer agony for eternity. I know I part ways with traditional evangelicalism at this point, but for a reason. The Bible clearly teaches degrees of punishment in hell (Mt. 11.22-24; 23.14; Rev. 20.13; Lk. 10.12; 12.47-48). I’ll say this: the FIRE part is what Satan and his angels will experience (Mt. 25.41). What is “hell” for people, then? It is death, or separation from life, which is God (2 Thes. 1.7-9; Rev. 20.14); it is suffering and remorse (indubitably), it is punishment (Mt. 25.46; Rev. 14.11), and it is God’s judgment, symbolized by fire in some texts, by being cut to pieces in some, and by darkness in others. What does this “separation from God” (Mt. 7.23; 25.41; Dan. 12.3; Rom. 2.5) mean? The only choice is a counterpart of what heaven is. It is a separation from Life, the agony of unmitigated absence from God, emptiness, day in and day out meaninglessness, argumentation, insecurity, the pain of everything being wrong, dissatisfaction, and fear. That’s right: life as we know it now, but without any of the redeeming blessings of life that come from God. Heaven isn’t jewels and harps; hell isn’t screaming and fire. Heaven is daily glory (the essence of God’s being), and hell is daily death (the essence of sin). Jesus’ verbal images are his way of struggling to let everyone know hell is the worst of all possible worlds and is to be avoided at all costs.

3. There’s no doubt about it. People choose self instead of God. They don’t WANT a relationship with Him. Why would they want to go to heaven then? Oh, I know. Of course, it’s because no one wants to suffer. Here’s the truth: there are two choices: Be connected with God thoroughly and relationally, or to not be connected. For those who choose not to be connected, God sends them from his presence. It’s an act of love, because love won’t override the other person’s will to get what he wants. You read ALL the stories of Jesus. The people who get sent to hell in the parables are the people who chose self over God. Hell is choice and self-preservation on the part of the people making the decision (see also Rom. 1.22-23). God, in love and with a broken heart, lets them go away from him. We see it many times in the Gospels: Jesus will not stay where he is not wanted.

C.S. Lewis makes some interesting observations about hell. I'll reword them and summarize some of them here: You object to the doctrine of hell. What are you asking God to do? To wipe out past sins, at all costs, to give anyone who wants it a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every possible miraculous help? But He has DONE that. That’s what his death and resurrection were all about. OK, then, to forgive you? It’s a RELATIONSHIP. He will forgive anyone who wants it, and cannot forgive those who choose not to be forgiven. To leave you alone then? Well, I’m afraid that’s what hell is.

If a game is played, it must be possible to lose it. If there is a way that must be found by the will, and by love, then it must be possible to refuse it. If the happiness of a person is honestly the result of self-surrender, then no one can make that decision except himself, and he may refuse. I would love to say everyone will be saved. But then I’d have to ask, “Will they be saved against their will, or with it?” If I say “Against their will,” I’m in the middle of a contradiction; how can self-surrender and love be involuntary? But if the answer is “With their will,” it begs the question: “What if they will not give in?”

Talk to me. I'm listening.

[rservice]

Good word, Jim!

As I was reflecting on this the motto of the Theosophical Society came to mind: "There is no religion higher than the truth". But Jesus claimed to BE the Truth. So he was claiming to be higher than all religions, right up there with God, and he claimed all power had been given to him. He even backed it up with his actions. He also said he was the only way to the Father and heaven. He did not leave any wiggle room, like if you just do good enough, maybe you can get in. That is why I have dedicated my life to following Him, and I hope to introduce others to Him as well. I totally believe there is no other way.

John Reimers