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[Max]

The bible speaks often of a place of separation from God after we die. Often referred to as hell. I have several thoughts that I would like responded to: First, what is the second death? Is the second death possibly a reference to annihilation? Is hell eternal? Is the second death something that takes place in Hell or is it a different step in the process? I suppose I really want to know what would be the proper position to take; the eternal, consciousness of Hell or an annihilation view?

[jimwalton]

Great questions. Let's talk, and feel free to go back and forth with me on these. And, by the way, conversation about hell is always a worthwhile conversation, because it's so important. The first thing to remember is that the Bible, like law, is true but still must be interpreted. And while people disagree about the interpretation, just as they do about the law, that doesn't make the law or the Bible untrue. Lawyers and Christians should feel free to discuss, debate, and even disagree. After all, the most important things are worthy of our best thoughts, and there are bound to be disagreements. It's OK.

You are right that hell is first and foremost a place of separation from God, and therefore from Life (God is life, eternal and self-sustaining). The Bible often uses images of fire to describe it, but lots of times it also does not use images of fire to describe it. The Bible uses five main pictures to speak of hell:
1. Darkness (Mt. 8.12; Jude 13) and separation (Lk. 13.27-28; 2 Thes. 1.7-9)
2. Suffering and Remorse

* Weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 8.12; 22.13; 25.30; Lk. 13.28)

* fire (Mt. 13.42, 50)

* cut to pieces (Mt. 24.51)

3. Punishment (Mt. 25.46; Rev. 14.11)
4. Fire (Jude 7; Luke 16.24)
5. Death and destruction (2 Thes. 1.7-9; Rev. 20.14)

I happen to think hell is not literally fire, but the agony of true separation from God. I say that because fire doesn't have degrees of punishment, but hell does. Degrees of separation makes more sense to me than degrees of being burned. I believe hell is degrees of punishment, based on the sin (though not levels of hell, as in Dante). Here's my proof:

Mt. 11.22-24 – “more tolerable”
Mt. 23.14 – “greater condemnation”
Rev. 20.13 – “each in proportion to his works”
Lk. 10.12 – “it will be more bearable for Sodom than for that town”
Lk. 12.47-48 – beaten with few blows or more blows

But now to your specific questions. What is the second death? It's mentioned only four times in the Bible: Rev. 2.11; 20.6, 14; 21.8—obviously all in Revelation. Revelation explains it as "the lake of fire". It is referred to as the second death, because people have already experienced the first death—separation from physical life. The lake of fire is referred to as the second death—separation from spiritual life, or complete separation from God. The second death is for those who will share the eternal fate of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet (comprising the anti-Trinity).

Is the second death a reference to annihilation? Very few believers accept annihilation. The teachings of the Bible are very strong against it, though some Christians do believe in annihilation. 2 Thes. 1.9 is a strong text against it, though there are many.

Is hell eternal? Again, 2 Thes. 1.9 is a strong statement on the eternity of hell, but you should be aware that there are great efforts to understand the teaching of the Bible about eternal punishment. There are certainly verses that talk about eternal punishment, but they don't necessarily include all of those who are separated from God. There are verses that talk about God reconciling all things to himself (Rom. 11.15; 2 Cor. 5.19; Col. 1.20), and so some theologians think that God will continue his work of reconciliation even into "eternity", such that those who "serve their time" will at a later date be reconciled with God. There is another position called "semi-restorationism" where, after appropriate punishment, those who desire a relationship with God will be partially restored, and those who do not, even after punishment, will opt to remain separated. The point is that, consistent with everything else the Bible teaches, a person's relegation to hell will be something the person will choose ("I don't WANT to be with God!") rather than a destination forced upon one against their will. While the Bible speaks about eternity, possibly only those who stay eternally defiant will be eternally punished. It's hard to know. The language of the Bible speaks over and over about hell being eternal, but some theologians think that "eternal" is able to be interpreted and may not be what it seems to sound like on the surface.

Is the second death something that takes place in Hell, or is it a different step in the process? It seems to be the last step. In Luke there's a story of a rich man who is burning in hell, in torment. But then in Rev. 20.14, death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. What is usually understood is that hell is the place unbelievers go after death, but then after the final judgment, there is another step of separation from God, the final one, which is eternal destiny (depending on how one interprets "eternal").

My bottom line is this: Those who turn away from God will be separated from the life of God. Though we can't be sure about the form or duration of that separation, this we can be sure of: it will be a horrible experience, and God will be fair about the form and duration of it. If you reject God, you take your chances.

You want to know what the proper position is to take. A few Christians believe in annihilationism, a few in reconcilationism, a few in semi-restorationism, and the majority believe in the traditional view (which is why it is the traditional view). To read Scripture in the simplest and most obvious way, hell is the eternal destiny of the unsaved. Many people wrestle with the justice of that, and so try to come up with other ways to juxtapose God's love, his justice, and hell, and that's where the other theories come from. These are worthy pursuits. I think eternal, conscious hell has far stronger Biblical support than annihilationism, but such questions shouldn't decide whether you believe in God or not. Study the Scripture yourself, and see what the Lord teaches you. As for me, I believe in what I wrote that I called "my bottom line". the form and duration of hell may be "negotiable," but God's justice is not. That's what I hang my hat on.

[Max]

Thanks for the response. Let's then talk about tradition and how it relates to 2 Thess 1:9. It goes without saying that the traditional view has the most support, that is why it is tradition(I think you said this already). But as I read 2 Thess my focus moves from eternal to destruction. Destruction, correct me if I am wrong, is the ceasing of something to exist? It would seem that this verse would support both the eternal and annihilationist views simultaneously? We are eternally destroyed. This would in turn challenge the idea that we are in a perpetual state of consciousness if we have been destroyed. Which may beg the question, is there a period of time after we die that we are given another opportunity to accept or deny Christ? If we are dead and then destroyed when would it be possible for every knee to bow and every tongue to confess? There must then be a period of time between that of death and judgment. Which I think would be allowed by the reading of Hebrews as no time marker is evident. Just one and then the other. It is similar to my saying I am going to eat supper after I get off of work. I may eat as soon as I clock out, or it may be several hours. If we think of Hebrews 9:27 that way it is really up for debate how long from one to the other.

[jimwalton]

Great thoughts and good conversation. Our best bet is to start with the words themselves, because they have flexibility and nuances, and then we are left to interpret.

2 Thes. 1.9: "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power."

"They" is obviously those who do not know God, who do not obey the gospel, from v. 8)

"will be punished" is τίσουσιν, which means "recompensed" and is always used negatively, hence "pay the penalty; suffer punishment."

The second part that is translated in "will be punished" is δίκην, that means "penal justice after due process of law; judgment; sentence." It also implies the negative: those who don't know God and don't obey will face the just consequences for their attitudes and actions, and the penalty of punishment will be meted out in just form.

That's where we are so far. But what are they punished with??? ὄλεθρον, a word that variously means "corruption; ruin; death; destruction." The context has to give us the real thought (which is where interpretation comes in). But the destruction/ruin/death is actually described for us by Paul: their "destruction" is that they will be shut out from the presence of the Lord. This word "destruction" is used in a lot of places in the Bible (Gal. 6.8; 1 Cor. 3.17; Phil. 1.28; 3.19; 2 Pet. 2.1, 3, and many more). So how do you read this? What is he saying?

Then we have the word translated "everlasting." It's αἰώνιον, which literally means "characterized by eons," and is translated "age-long; age-lasting; eternal; everlasting." It is the same word that is used of eternal life.

So what do we do with this? To me, "eternal" (characterized by eons) doesn't sound at all like annihilation (a sudden ending), but some kind of continuing state of being. Some would contend that it means a person dies and stays dead eternally, but to me that sounds far-fetched and not a real sensible way to look at it. And "destruction" is described as "shut out from the presence of the Lord, which sounds like the opposite of "and so we will be with the LORD forever" of 1 Thes. 4.17, so it sounds like a continuing state.

You can see why there are different opinions. You can see why there is the traditional view, but it can be argued against (and it is).

In my mind there's another piece of logic: annihilation doesn't strike me as fair. Somebody's a good person, but they don't know the Lord, and so when they die, it's over and they cease to exist. But then someone else lives barbaric life of murder and mayhem, abuse and evil, and when they die, it's over and they cease to exist. To me that doesn't seem fair. There's no punishment for what they did? Then it seems to me they got away with it, and then cease to exist. By the same token, just to be fair, many people don't see fairness in an eternity of hell for a finitude of sin—a mere 80 years. Wouldn't, say, 80,000 years of punishment suffice? According to the traditional view, no, they gotta take it for all eternity, even the good person but who doesn't know the Lord. To many that doesn't seem fair either.

To answer your question directly, while "destruction" as a term seems to imply the ceasing of something to exist, the end of verse seems to define it as a state of ruin that continues—but for how long? For "eternity", or for "age-lasting"? (Some would say the final "age" is defined by eternity. See? We're all into the game of wise and godly interpretation, trying to see what God meant, not what we'd prefer that it said.)

Is there a period of time after we die that we are given another opportunity to accept or deny Christ? Heb. 9.27 would seem to say, "Absolutely not." But can't Heb. 9.27 be true (people live, people die, and then people are judged), and yet the judgment be terminated after a time that's fair? Reconciliationists and semi-restorationists say that, yes, there comes a time when enough is enough, the punishment has been fair, and then God gives them opportunity to be reconciled. Some will, and some won't, and those who won't continue in eternal punishment (so the Scriptures turn out to be literally true after all, even though not every sinner is eternally rebellious and will be restored to some level of relationship).

These are complex and difficult matters, and are the subject of much discussion. Again, I rely on what I'm able to come to solid Biblical conclusion on: Those who turn away from God will be separated from the life of God. Though we can't be sure about the form or duration of that separation, this we can be sure of: it will be a horrible experience, and God will be fair about the form and duration of it. If you reject God, you take your chances. We can talk about hell, destruction, annihilation, reconciliation, and restoration for a long, long time, and they are productive and interesting discussions. But I won't fight with people about 'em. To me annihilationism isn't just, but neither is unmitigated and eternal hell. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, but where? Not sure. I can be sure that God is just, that hell is awful, and that I'll pay any price to be on the "heaven" side of the equation. And I think, after all, that's the point.