Christians generally believe they will go to heaven, and the claim is that heaven is really great, or rather, it is 'perfect'. But I don't see how that can be. If heaven is somehow 'perfect', then real people, imperfect people, could not get in there.
If I accept Jesus and die and go to heaven (saved by grace, not deeds), then before I am let through the Pearly Gates, God will have to lobotomize me in some fashion. Otherwise I am still capable of having desires and making choices that with either lead me to sinful acts, or to frustrations and disappointments when my desires/choices are not fulfilled. So either heaven isn't so heavenly (*is not perfect), or the 'me' that gets into heaven isn't the same as the 'me' that is living right now, but rather would be some changed version of 'me' to make me fit in the new rules for the new place.
This presumes that we get to do something in heaven and are not just hanging out in a vacuous nothingness for all eternity.
And I also reject the 'heaven is all about praising God' version of heaven. Doesn't matter if people keep their bodies, get harps and wings, or are disembodied souls. That praising could be achieved by God simply playing a recorded track of praising over and over an infinite number of times, no people required. From what I gather, the praising is not in specific response to anything. I can't see any divine being getting infinite pleasure from eternal praise. Such praise would be just too empty for words.
So is there a way to formulate an idea of heaven where there is some type of perfection without having to limit conscious, human choice or desire to some 'safe' subset of what I am today? Can the full, whole and complete 'me' get in?
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Re: No one real can be in heaven
by jimwalton » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:24 am
I'll make a couple of points. First of all, heaven is a "spiritual" realm that is not tainted by sin and is where God's presence dwells among angels. The Bible only ever discusses heaven in abstract and metaphorical terms because it's not exactly something we can easily understand. It's very different from our physical world. It is not a place, exactly. It's not a part of our universe. And it doesn't "contain" God. Heaven was created by God just as our universe was.
Heaven is usually mentioned in the Bible in one of two ways:
On one hand, it's a place from where God rules. The main idea is that God's presence and righteousness are there in full force. Jesus often talked about God's kingdom coming to Earth. Heaven is a place that is already entirely God's kingdom. And he is always being worshiped there, by angels. So presumably it's where angels generally exist—they're only ever seen on Earth when given a specific mission or responsibility here.
The truth is, biblically speaking, heaven is NOT our ultimate destination. Revelation talks about how there will be a new heaven and new Earth in the end, that God will dwell here on Earth just as he dwells in heaven, and that we will live (in resurrected bodies like Jesus') on the new Earth. Heaven became twisted into this idea that we would just leave Earth and spend eternity in heaven. That's not biblical. The Bible suggests that people in the afterlife will live on a rebuilt Earth.
Second, heaven isn't all about praising God. From some of the parables that Jesus tells (Matthew 25.14-23; Luke 19.12-19) we can infer that people will live lives kind of like what we have here, with meaningful work to do, responsibilities, relationships, etc.—what earth was supposed to be.
Thirdly, and the most direct answer to your question: 1 Corinthians 15.35-54. We are not able to enter heaven with these bodies and minds that are imperfect. "We will all be changed" from mortal to immortal. Now we know in part; then we will know fully (1 Corinthians 13.12). When perfection comes, the imperfect disappears (1 Cor. 13.10). What we will be has not been completely revealed, but we know that when Jesus appears, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is (1 John 3.3). I will still be "me," but the best version of me—the me I was intended ideally to be.
The full, whole and complete "me" will get in, but I will be transformed to be suitable for entrance. We won't be lobotomized, but our knowledge and consciousness will be expanded (Romans 8.21-23, 29). The afterlife with Christ is a radical upgrade, not a dumbing-down just too empty for words.
Heaven is usually mentioned in the Bible in one of two ways:
On one hand, it's a place from where God rules. The main idea is that God's presence and righteousness are there in full force. Jesus often talked about God's kingdom coming to Earth. Heaven is a place that is already entirely God's kingdom. And he is always being worshiped there, by angels. So presumably it's where angels generally exist—they're only ever seen on Earth when given a specific mission or responsibility here.
The truth is, biblically speaking, heaven is NOT our ultimate destination. Revelation talks about how there will be a new heaven and new Earth in the end, that God will dwell here on Earth just as he dwells in heaven, and that we will live (in resurrected bodies like Jesus') on the new Earth. Heaven became twisted into this idea that we would just leave Earth and spend eternity in heaven. That's not biblical. The Bible suggests that people in the afterlife will live on a rebuilt Earth.
Second, heaven isn't all about praising God. From some of the parables that Jesus tells (Matthew 25.14-23; Luke 19.12-19) we can infer that people will live lives kind of like what we have here, with meaningful work to do, responsibilities, relationships, etc.—what earth was supposed to be.
Thirdly, and the most direct answer to your question: 1 Corinthians 15.35-54. We are not able to enter heaven with these bodies and minds that are imperfect. "We will all be changed" from mortal to immortal. Now we know in part; then we will know fully (1 Corinthians 13.12). When perfection comes, the imperfect disappears (1 Cor. 13.10). What we will be has not been completely revealed, but we know that when Jesus appears, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is (1 John 3.3). I will still be "me," but the best version of me—the me I was intended ideally to be.
The full, whole and complete "me" will get in, but I will be transformed to be suitable for entrance. We won't be lobotomized, but our knowledge and consciousness will be expanded (Romans 8.21-23, 29). The afterlife with Christ is a radical upgrade, not a dumbing-down just too empty for words.
Last bumped by Anonymous on Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:24 am.
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