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[Newbie]

When you "trust" God, what exactly are you trusting him to do? It's difficult to describe what I mean without sounding like I'm trying to be insulting, but it seems like we would get the same results if we trust in an imaginary person. God, help me feel well; God, help the children of Earth; God, end the wars; God, help me make more money. I think if you actually "trust" God to do any of this you would be very disappointed. And I think most Christians realize not to get their hopes up after praying for something. So the only thing we can actually "trust" God to do is to act in a way that only God himself can understand? It's like saying "I trust you will do, well, whatever it is that you do."

[jimwalton]

To me, trust is belief, but it’s also knowledge, and it’s the love relationship itself. When we trust God, we are acknowledging before Him that we don’t know what the next minute will bring. Our ways, our thoughts, our intuitions, and preferences, have to be transformed by the renewing of our minds (Rom. 12.2). We have enough knowledge about His character and His ways that we can trust in him rather than ourselves. To trust God implies that we will not trust our own resources. We know who we are in Him and where we stand. We are open to his power and wisdom, and we know that He always treats his children with love.

[Reeses Pieces]

Thanks for the reply. I'm having trouble understanding it. Like you, I don't know what the next minute will bring, so I plan as best I can.

>We have enough knowledge about His character and His ways that we can trust in him rather than ourselves.

What have you seen to form your opinion about his character? From my perspective he never intervenes here, almost as if he doesn't even exist. Frankly, he lets lovely little children get murdered, and lets millions of people die in wars. Sometimes he wipes everybody out himself. What does this say about his character? I disagree when you say he always treats his children with love; I don't see it that way. I guess this is where a Christian would "trust" that it's all for a higher purpose, that in order to have free will we must be allowed to do bad things also. In doing so, this admits that God does not intervene to prevent the bad things from happening.

How is he going to treat me? I am a logic thinker who has totally rejected any belief in a Christian God. There's just no evidence for him whatsoever. Critical thinking which "He" gave me is why I reached this conclusion, so how could be upset with me? I've tried to lie to myself and convince myself that I believe, but it's of no use. I can't believe my own lies. So I try again, I go to church, I read more, only to find that I am now even further from believing.

Do you have any good reasons for believing, ones that might sway somebody else—somebody who asks tough questions?

[jimwalton]

> what have you seen to form your opinion about his character?

That's a long answer, but I'll try to condense it. I've seen people's lives completely and radically changed when they turn their lives over to God. Addictions broken, behavior and character turned around, values changed. It's astounding because it's so unnatural. You know how it goes: a leopard can't change its spots. People don't really change. You go to a high school reunion, and the goofs are still the goofs, the tightwads still tight, the preppies still prep, the losers still lost. But I've seen it so many times that Jesus changes people's lives. And it's not just "becoming religious" or starting to go to church, but all kinds of changes.

It's been part of my own life too. Went through a terrible time when I hit rock bottom. Sat in a room alone with a knife to my wrist, working hard to talk myself out of it while I was trying to talk myself into it. Put my trust in God, and he lifted me up. I don't know how else to explain it.

I read the Bible about his character, and it's true to what I see in life. He mostly doesn't intervene (children, starvation, wars, murder). The Bible says he's given the responsibility to us to feed the world (he has provided the bounty in crops), rule with justice (he has provided the brains and physical power), govern rightly (he has given us consciences and a sense of morality), and live in peace. But people screw it up all the time. We're the problem, not him. Our greed, pride, jealousy, will to power, and selfish desires rule our lives, just as the Bible says.

As far as intervention, though, I have two stories to share, though there are others. About 10 months ago a friend got pregnant. When she and her husband went for an ultrasound, they discovered the baby has severe hydrocephalus. The doctors advised abortion. They wouldn't do it, but were going to see the birth through. More tests and continuing tests confirmed and reconfirmed the severity. They prayed, and asked many people to pray. June 23rd: baby changed to breech position. Also discovered heart problems, aqueductal stenosis, and other possible genetic problems. Amniotic fluid decreasing. Nothing looks good about this picture. Much more prayer, and despair. The baby was born on July 21. Facebook post on July 23 said there is no all brain structures are there and all are functioning. Heart needs a shunt, but everything else is fine. Absolutely incredible. What do I DO with information like this? Medical change? Perhaps. Miraculous intervention? Perhaps. People were praying like mad. Now, I know there are lots of times people pray and nothing seems to happen. But this time something did.

One more story. Another friend, 19 years old, taken to the hospital with a life-threatening stroke. Sunday evening his one side was non-functional. When he talked it was total babel. The doctors said he may not live, and if he did, his functionality might be minimal. I was in the room. Lots of tears. His church gathered to pray, and by email and Facebook, people all over the world. The next morning the church had a special prayer meeting at 6 in the morning. I went into my friend's hospital room at 9 am, along with his parents. The guy said (I kid you not), "Hi Mom. Hi Dad. What's going on?" I was THERE. How do you explain stuff like this? An answer to prayer? It sure seems it.

Another story. I lost my job not too long ago. My wife and I were anxious about survival (paying our bills, getting on, and all), and started praying that God would provide for us while I looked for a new job. Well, a few days later we come home to find a bag of groceries on our porch. Hm. (We hadn't told anyone we were praying for food.) In our mailbox was a gift card for a grocery store that someone sent us anonymously. A few days later an anonymous card showed up in the mail with cash in it. I swear on my mother's grave these things really happened. Now, food doesn't fly down from heaven; somebody dropped it off, mailed money, etc. But was this "the hand of God," or mere coincidence?

As it turns out, I was unemployed for a LONG time, but I'll tell you this stuff didn't stop. We never went hungry, but we never asked people for food. It "just came." You want another way-out-there example? During this period of time, my car died. GREAT timing. Didn't know WHAT we were going to do. Horrible misery. I swear it—somebody drove in my driveway with a 2008 car, offering it to me for 1/3 of what it was worth on the market, in a price range I could now afford. Seriously, what is a person supposed to MAKE of that? (I read about wild stories like that, and I find them hard to believe, but this one, unbelievably, happened to ME.)

You wanted to know what I've seen that forms my opinion of God's character. These are just SOME of the things. But I'll admit that there is lots of tragedy and suffering in the world that God just doesn't seem to do anything about. First, as I said, he expects us to feed the hungry, judge with justice, and govern with integrity. And I also think that if we have free will, then God can't say, "Well, you're only free to do good things. All this other stuff is off limits." That's not free will. To be free to love requires that I also be free to choose to not love. So it's not just a cliche of "I trust that it's all for a higher purpose." I"m seeing real life.

How is he going to treat you, who has rejected any belief in him? He will allow you your free will, and will not force you to acknowledge him or spend eternity with him. You say, "There's no evidence for him whatsoever." As to that, I find that the arguments for the possible existence of God are far more convincing than the arguments against his existence. Of course they don't prove God, but they make reasonable, logical sense, and make better sense of the evidence than other arguments. But in addition to that, I've told you some stories from my own life that give evidence (not proof). You say you have critical thinking, and you obviously do. I've read an interesting argument: In a naturalistic system where randomness and chance are the only players, from where does critical thinking arise? If all is truly by randomness and chance, then any critical thought has to rationally be questioned as to whether it's accurate and trustworthy, or just a random thing that should be ignored. And therefore I can never really know if my critical thinking can be trusted.Right? Naturalism teaches that the course of evolution displays no teleology. It is blind and unforeseen. It has no aims or goals, but just happens. Patricia Churchland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Churchland) says, "Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in the four Fs: feeding, fleeing, fighting, and reproducing." The chore is survival, not truth. Truth is not in the equation. The principal function of our cognitive faculties is not arriving at true or near truth conclusions, but contributing to survival. And yet we have cognitive faculties (reason, logic, memory) that we consider to be reliable. What evolution underwrites is only adaptive behavior, not truth. Our beliefs might be mostly true, but there is no particular reason to think they would be. Natural selection is not interested in truth, but in appropriate behavior for survival. Naturalistic evolution suggests that our cognitive faculties have arisen by mechanisms and processes that give us reason to doubt two things: 1) that a purpose of our cognitive systems is to serve us with true beliefs, and 2) that our cognitive systems do, in fact, furnish us with mostly true beliefs. Darwin himself said, "With me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?"

Instead, what makes more sense is that "He" gave you the critical thinking that you have. Science requires regularity, predictability, and constancy. From the point of naturalism, that our world displays the regularity and law-like behavior necessary for science is a bit of enormous luck, a "didn't-expect-that-one" serendipity. But regularity and law-likeness fit very well with the thought that God is rational and created our world to function according to laws. But there's the next step: not only must the world be regular, but for science to flourish, scientists and others must believe that it does. There can't be science without conviction that truth can be reliably ascertained. such a conviction fits well with the biblical teachings of a God who is truth, who is omniscient, and who instilled in us the same. It doesn't fit as well with systems of randomness, unpredictability, and chance. (Not that it's impossible, but not as logical, to a critical thinker.) Thirdly, Plantinga suggests, "Theism enables us to understand the necessity or inevitableness or inviolability of natural law: this necessity is to be explained and understood in terms of the difference between divine power and the power of finite creatures. Again, from the point of view of the naturalist, the character of these laws is something of an enigma. What is this alleged necessity they display, weaker than logical necessity, but necessity nonetheless? What if anything explains that fact that these laws govern what happens? What reason if any is there for expecting them to continue to govern these phenomena? Theism provides a natural answer to these questions; naturalism stands mute before them."

Are there good reasons for believing? I see hundreds. We know the universe had a beginning, and as far as we logically know, all things that had a beginning had a cause. There is logic in thinking, then, that the universe has a cause. And since we know that what begins to exist is caused to exist by something already in existence, a first and uncaused being is not illogical. We also know that when we see something that has purpose, it was the purposeful product from an intelligent source. Since the universe displays characteristics of cause and effect, means to an end, purposefulness, it is logical to assume an intelligent source. In addition, we have personality, morality, and intelligence (informational data). There is no known source of such things other than a source that is also characterized by them. There is so much more to say. Given what we see, God is a very reasonable explanation for it.

Tough questions are always allowed. Truth can sustain any assault.

[Reeses Pieces]

I greatly appreciate your thoughtful reply. I agree these events can be viewed as evidence of a God intervening. Having said that, I would have remaining questions: "Why would God intervene and help with car troubles, but not intervene to save a starving child" (which you already addressed somewhat), or "If prayer works, is it ethical to pray for financial help, or should all of our time be directed toward praying for bigger causes such as starving or kidnapped children." Again, thanks for you reply.

[jimwalton]

Why would God intervene and help with car troubles, but not intervene to save a starving child? As I said, it's up to us. He expects us to do these things. It is largely government policies, warlord abuses, political snafus, and just the quest for greed and power that prevent the children from getting adequate food. I've read statistics in several places that the earth has the ability to provide food for everyone—that there doesn't need to be such a thing as starvation. God made the earth to produce. It's people who burn down forests, steal each other's food, ruin the water, ruin the farmland, etc. In ancient times parts of the Middle East were lush and well-watered gardens. But armies came through, burning forests, tearing up farmland and orchards, and the land became a barren wilderness. Is this God's fault? In addition, God does intervene to help starving children all the time, but they do it through people. There are Christian organizations like World Vision, Food for the Hungry, and Compassion that feed millions of children around the world. But they can't keep up with the political devastation caused by corrupt regimes and war.

Is it ethical to pray for financial help, or should all of our time be directed toward praying for bigger causes? The Bible encourages us to pray about everything. Our needs, inadequacies, and vulnerabilities reach to every corner of our lives, including the big and the small. We should pray about everything. But if God turns around and gives me food, I should turn around and help someone else. Pay it forward, pay it out. We should all be helping each other all the time. If I receive, I should also give.

[Reeses Pieces]

I'm part of an extreme minority. I identify most closely as atheist, yet don't believe in macroevolution. I believe intelligent design is involved. Naturalism doesn't answer all the questions. You illustrated this. And I also agree the First Cause is hard to explain without a God. But who is this God? I doubt it's Zeus. I also doubt it's Yahweh. It's difficult to entertain the idea of Christianity after hearing well constructed arguments against it—from people like Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris. I think it difficult for Christianity to sustain the assault, evidence for God is different from evidence for Christianity.

[jimwalton]

Wow, that IS unusual. An ID Atheist who "believes" in a divine first cause. Very interesting. I'm glad to hear you're an independent critical thinker. I agree that arguments for evidence of a divine being are different from arguments that YHWH is the one God. I'm also curious that you respect the ideas of Hitchens and Harris. Hitchens I find quite unconvincing—more an entertainer or motivational speaker than volumes of awesome content. Harris is the better thinker, but his arguments, imho, don't have the weight and substance that the counter arguments from the Christian side do. (Obviously, since I'm a Christian.) You doubt the First Cause is YHWH, and you think Christianity falters under the assault of logic. Perhaps you'd like to talk about some of those things.

[Reeses Pieces]

Even when I was a little kid, Christianity didn't make much sense. My father was non-religious, but my mom went to church—the kind where you raise your hands and sing for an hour. Granted the music gets me emotional, but I always felt like I missed something. What did I miss, why are people worshipping God?...what have they seen that I haven't? I never see any magical stuff happen. And who is Jesus? Is he god? Is he the son of god? (still never figured this one out). Why did he "die" for us? Can a god even die? How can somebody die for somebody else? If he was an only begotten son, what does that mean in deity terms? Did god reproduce somehow? And what's with this flood? Everybody knows you can fit all the animals on a boat. Maybe it's more likely these are made up stories? It all sounds pretty far fetched. And isn't it obvious that heaven is a made up place because we are all afraid of dying? And how can somebody be happy in heaven if a relative is stuck in hell, would that ruin the festivities for you? I could go on with more. I don't mean to offend, it sounds like you're up for the challenge. I guess if god sends me to hell for not believing, that would be his choice, but I was true to myself. I wouldn't want to share heaven with a god who doesn't respect me. And maybe I don't respect him either. Who ever said we have to respect God? He's not God by his own choosing, right? He's just some entity that always was and always will be. I don't see why being powerful is automatically a virtue.

[jimwalton]

Lots of good questions. I hardly know where to start, and i certainly can't answer all of them in one post (there's a 10,000 word limit. ).

The sense of Christianity: A God of power and love creates a beautiful and purposeful world of people with whom to share his love and powers. Because those people aren't divine (they can't be, they're created), but because they are filled with intelligence, purpose, and will (gifts given them by their creator to function on earth), they use their minds and wills to choose themselves over God, feeling more confident in their own competencies (given to them by God) than in the God who made them and gave them. God can't stop them from doing that (or else he abrogates the very functionality he gave to them), but instead works to redeem their wrongs and bring them back into relationship. The Bible is the story of God's contract with humans, revealing who He is, showing them what has happened and why, and how he is working to make it right. It tells the consequences of compliance with his contract, as well as the consequences of defiance. All the while he is doing everything possible to share his love, to woo us back into relationship (because love can't be forced), and to mitigate the consequences people chose (separation from his life = inevitable death). In the end we are the ones who choose. Those who want to be in a love relationship with him will be forgiven and restored. Those who want nothing to do with him will not be forced, but will be separated from him as they wish.

Why do we worship him? We recognize him as the majestic and powerful source that has created all that is. We want to respond to his initiatives of love and redemption with gratitude. We want to honor that his love was meaningful enough for him to become servant-like and sacrificial on our behalf—an astounding action for a God to take. We want to respect the contract he has given, recognizing that its purpose is our well-being. And we want to habitually remind ourselves that truth and purpose don't reside in or emit from us. We as humans are too inadequate to be the focus of all things. God is adequate and worthy of that position. That's why I worship.

> I haven't seen any magical stuff happen.

That doesn't matter. I don't need to have that. Even if I never see that stuff I accept the Bible because it's true, not because I get cool things or cool experiences.

> Who is Jesus?

The Gospel writers worked hard to let us know that God manifests himself as more than one person, even though he is an essential unity. While some things seem to be self-contradictory, there are both possible and logical ways to reconcile the alleged variance. For instance, we know that light exhibits the characteristics of a particle and of a wave. So while it is a single entity (substance), it manifests itself in various ways.

Another way to look at it is this: Suppose I write a book, and I put myself in it. The character "me" says what I would say and does what I would do. It's ME in the book. He's exactly as I am. Now, is the character in the book different from the me outside of the book? Of course he is. But is it me? Of course it is. He's all me, but he's all a separate character. I can easily be both the author and a character without compromising either.

Some people view human beings as unified entities, that we have no soul or spirit, but we just ARE—all of me is all there is of me. Some people, however, view humans as bipartite—a body and a mind. Is that a contradiction, to think that the "mind" of me is somehow a separate entity of the "body" of me, and yet I am "me," a unified whole? Not at all. It's possible. It's difficult to know the truth and reality of such things, but it's both possible and possibly reasonable.

In the Bible, the Trinity distinguishes between the principle of divine action and the subject of divine action. The principle of all divine action is the one undivided divine essence, But the subject of divine action is either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. The Father can send the Son according to his power, and the Son can be incarnated according to his nature without dividing the divine essence (light, person, nature, in my 3 analogies). Hope that helps.

> How can somebody die for somebody else?

It's a legal transaction. If you have a debt of, say, $50,000, and a friend of yours steps up and offers to pay it for you, just because he's your friend, you would (I bet) gladly accept. It's the same thing here. Each of us has a debt, a debt of sin and the payment is death (Rom. 6.23). So instead of money, the debt is life. Jesus stepped up and offered to pay it for you, just because he loves you. He has a right to be generous with you if he chooses. You may logically object, "Life is different from money." Not as far as the definition of debt is concerned. You may object that money debt is different from punishment debt. Let's look at the technicalities of the law. Supposing a slave back in colonial America was due to receive 40 lashes, and another man stepped up and offered to take the 40 lashes in his place. Technically as to the law, as long as the 40 lashes got delivered to a back, the law was served. That's the point here. Technically, as long as the punishment is paid, justice is served.

> And what's with this flood?

I am quite solidly convinced that the flood was not global, but a massive regional (continental?) inundation. We can talk about this more if you like, but it's too big to add here as part of this conversation.

> And isn't it obvious that heaven is a made up place because we are all afraid of dying?

That isn't obvious at all. What to me makes more sense is that we know that there's more to this life than living and dying, there's more to this life than meaninglessness chemistry and biology, and life has more intrinsic purpose than what I assign to it. There's something going on that is far bigger than me, or than even humanity. Heaven isn't a legend to help me deny my fear, it's the truth that life is valuable and purposeful enough to stretch beyond the years of breath.

I don't want to post longer and longer, even there is so much more to say. We can keep dialoguing as you wish.