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[Kind Glue]

Early Christianity was Non-Trinitarian!!!!!

Trinity is derived from Nicene theology and NOT the Bible!!

Unitarians are just as much Christians as Trinitarians!!!!!!

Trinity can’t be proven logically. There will always be a violation of the law of non-contradiction.

Trinity can’t be proven metaphysically i.e. grounding.

Every bible verse Trinitarians use to support the divinity of Christ are cherry picked and taken out of context.

Trinitarians ignore or throw out the window all the bible verses which explicitly refute and/or contradict the divinity of Christ.

[jimwalton]

> Early Christianity was Non-Trinitarian!!!!!

This is patently false. Early Christianity was distinctively Trinitarian.

First of all, Jesus himself was Trinitarian. Secondly, the Apostolic Gospel writers were Trinitarian. Third, Paul was Trinitarian. That's really all the evidence we need to show that Christianity was Trinitarian from the outset.

> Trinity is derived from Nicene theology and NOT the Bible!!

The doctrine of the Trinity was formalized at Nicene, but it had been a belief system from the beginning of Christianity.

> Unitarians are just as much Christians as Trinitarians!!!!!!

I don't agree. If you don't believe in the deity of Christ, you're not a Christian.

> Trinity can’t be proven logically. There will always be a violation of the law of non-contradiction.

This is not necessarily so. Science shows us the same kinds of paradoxes, and yet we don't reject those as violations of the laws of noncontradiction. All physical reality has a dual nature. Mass and energy are in principle inter-convertible, through nuclear fission or fusion reactions. E = mc^2. We can, therefore, speak of the universe as a "space-light-time" universe. It is significant that this motion of light is famous for its mysterious and paradoxical complementarity. It has the characteristics of both waves and particles, and yet it definitely behaves as a wave motion under some conditions and as a particle motion under others. This duality applies both in radiations of electro-magnetic energy and in the atomic structure of matter, in which the orbiting electron likewise behaves both as a particle and as a wave. The two disciplines of modern physics known as quantum mechanics and wave mechanics have been developed from these two concepts. So if light (one essence) can be both a wave and a particle (two completely different characteristics), and not be a contradiction, then maybe that can help us understand how God can be Father, Son, and Spirit (one essence) but three Persons (different characteristics).

There are also several principles from quantum mechanics that may show us some analogies. The first is called superposition, where subatomic particles are able to exist in two states simultaneously. Get that—that very same things existing in two separate states at the same time. The second is that of nonlocality and entanglement. The principle here is that objects in far reaches of the universe seem to "know" about each other's states, and yet these separate particles can behave as a single entity. These may be possible analogies, if that helps.

For another potential scientific "validation" of such possibilities, in 2017 a group of quantum scientists (University of Science and Technology of China in Shanghai) successfully teleported a photon from Earth to a satellite in orbit. It's called quantum entanglement. As far as our discussion here, quantum entanglement means that the two quantum objects share a wave function and share the same identity, even when separated. What happens to one happens to the other—wherever it exists. They are more than identical twins, the article said, "the two are one and the same." Apparently, according to the article, when they interact with matter on Earth they lose certain aspects of entanglement, but in the vacuum of space, they can extend infinitely (eternally). It's just interesting.

And have you had in geometry class where two parallel lines meet in infinity? That's weird. It sounds like a contradiction, but it's considered to be true.

> Every bible verse Trinitarians use to support the divinity of Christ are cherry picked and taken out of context.

This is patently untrue. The divinity of Christ is solidly in the text and is based on accurate exegesis.

> Trinitarians ignore or throw out the window all the bible verses which explicitly refute and/or contradict the divinity of Christ.

Not so. We don't ignore or defenestrate any Bible verse.

[Kind Glue]

> The doctrine of the Trinity was formalized at Nicene, but it had been a belief system from the beginning of Christianity.

This is a Lie.

[jimwalton]

It is not a lie. The doctrine of the Trinity would not have been raised at Nicene unless it were already being taught. The council met to discuss the heresies of Arius, who was claiming, against Church teaching, that there was no Trinity.

We get indications of the doctrine of the Trinity by the 2nd century heresies that were rejected by the Church: Monarchianism (Adoptionism and Modalism). Tertullian believed in the Trinity as one God in three Persons (even though he doesn't use the language that was common later). Nicea clarifies some of the language we now use about the Trinity, but it was convened to challenge the heresies that were arising in contrast to Trinitarianism, which was the belief of the Church.

Trinitarianism had been a belief since the onset of Christianity.

First, Jesus himself affirmed that He was part of a Trinity (Jn. 10.30; Mt. 28.19-20).

Secondly, Paul espoused Trinitarian belief.

• 1 Corinthians 8.6, possibly the first New Testament writing about Jesus's divinity, puts Jesus on the "Creator" side of the Creator/creature divide.
• In Philippians 2.6-11, Paul presents Christ as truly divine.
• 1 Cor. 12.4-6 mentions all three as equals.
• In 1 Cor. 12.1-3; Gal. 4.4; Rom. 1.3-4; 8.11 Paul sees the Spirit's identity as defined by how the Father and Christ have sent him, and likewise the identities of the Father and Christ as "in part" determined by the Spirit.
• Ephesians 2.18 shows that Jesus gives us access to the Father by means of the Spirit. So Jesus' blood is the means of access, but the Spirit is also the means of access. The result is that by reconciling people to Himself, Jesus reconciles people to God.
• For that matter, all throughout Paul's writings God and Christ and Spirit are mutually defining and reciprocally implicating. That is, God's identity is defined in/through/by his relationship to Christ/Son, and vice versa, and also with regard to the Spirit, as listed above.
• Romans 8 is infused with Father, Son, and Spirit working as equals and with equal authority, power, and presence. They are one undivided divine essence with different actions appropriate to their persons.
• In Romans 9.5, Paul says explicitly that the Messiah (who is Jesus, vv. 1, 3) is God.
• Titus 3.3-8. All three Persons of the Trinity are present and cooperating in the act of grace. Each Person has His function in the salvation of our soul.
• There are also plenty of the places where the Father is equated with the Son, and the Son is equated with the Spirit. So if the principle holds that if A1 = A2 & A2 = A3, then A1 also equals A3.

Third, the Gospel writers affirmed the Trinity, particularly and most obviously John 1.1, but we can talk about this further if you wish.

[Kind Glue]

> I don't agree. If you don't believe in the deity of Christ, you're not a Christian.

Unitarians do believe in Christ as do Muslims and even some Jewish people so you are misguided.

[jimwalton]

I am not misguided. Unitarians don't believe that Jesus is God, as neither Muslims nor Jews believe that Jesus is God. Those who do not believe Jesus is God are not counted among those who belong to Christ, who are saved, and who are part of His people. John was emphatic in his Gospel, by using the words of Jesus, that those who did not believe that Jesus is God did not belong to God (John 1.1-14).

[Kind Glue]

> This is patently untrue. The divinity of Christ is solidly in the text and is based on accurate exegesis.

Only if you take them at face value and go off what your church has taught you.

[jimwalton]

Actually I study quite deeply and don't at all "go off" on what my church has taught me. We can discuss any text you like. It's dismaying how you're so quick to judge me prejudicially.

[Kind Glue]

> This is patently untrue. The divinity of Christ is solidly in the text and is based on accurate exegesis.

It's quite obvious from your own words that you have NOT read/studied any commentaries and books authored by Non-trinitarian New Testament scholars who provide analysis and facts to the contrary.

[jimwalton]

Instead of just jumping to conclusions based on false assumptions, let's have an actual conversation. Let's talk about these Bible texts you've allegedly studied.

The overall thrust of the Gospels is to present Jesus as God, the Messiah sent from God, the Son of God, and the one who will sit on God's throne and perform God's functions: forgiving sins and judging the nations.