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[Not in My House]

I would love to have a discussion about the doctrine of the trinity because it's a complete perversion of the word of God. Yet is preached and preached and believers were killed over it yet there is no real basis for it directly in scripture.

[jimwalton]

Sure, we can have this discussion. I disagree strongly that the trinitarian theology is a complete perversion of the word of God. I see plenty of basis for it in Scripture. We can have that discussion if you like. Paul, for one among many, teaches the doctrine.

Col. 1.19 says that all the fullness of God dwells in Jesus.

1 Cor. 12.4-6 mentions all three as equals.

In 1 Cor. 12.1-3; Gal. 4.4; Rom. 1.3-4; 8.11 Paul sees the Spirit's identity as defined by how the Father and Christ have sent him, and likewise the identities of the Father and Christ as "in part" determined by the Spirit.

Ephesians 2.18 shows that Jesus gives us access to the Father by means of the Spirit. So Jesus' blood is them means of access, but the Spirit is also the means of access. The result is that by reconciling people to Himself, Jesus reconciles people to God.

For that matter, all throughout Paul's writings God and Christ and Spirit are mutually defining and reciprocally implicating. That is, God's identity is defined in/through/by his relationship to Christ/Son, and vice versa, and also with regard to the Spirit, as listed above.

Romans 8 is infused with Father, Son, and Spirit working as equals and with equal authority, power, and presence. They are one undivided divine essence with different actions appropriate to their persons.

Titus 3.3-8. All three Persons of the Trinity are present and cooperating in the act of grace. Each Person has His function in the salvation of our soul.

There are also plenty of the places where the Father is equated with the Son, and the Son is equated with the Spirit. So if the principle holds that if A1 = A2 & A2 = A3, then A1 also equals A3.

[Nathan]

> John 1:1 says Jesus was with God and that Jesus was God.

That doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. Trinity is all 3...Not evidence

> In John 10.30, Jesus says that He and the Father are one essence.

Same as above...Not evidence

> Hebrews 1.3 says that jesus is the express image of the essence of God

Doesn't mention 3 essences...Not evidence

> Col. 1.19 says that all the fullness of God dwells in Jesus.

You do understand that Trinity means 3, right? Why do you continue to present 2? Not evidence

> 1 Cor. 12.4-6 mentions all three as equals.

It does no such thing. How dishonest of you. Did you think people wouldn't look it up?

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of services, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who activates all of them in everyone.

In no way does that say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equals. Not evidence

> 1 Peter 1.2 shows the three as cooperative deity.

Nope. It does no such thing. You have read the Trinity into the verse. A plain reading of the text just mentions all three entities. It doesn't say that are one deity. So dishonest...

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:
May grace and peace be yours in abundance.

I included verse 1 for clarity of context. No one who had never heard of the Trinity would come up with the concept of the Trinity from this verse. Not evidence

> Acts 1.1-8 mentions what has been expressed in the places: The Father and the Son share divine authority (Mt. 28.19-20), and the Son and the Spirit are one and same who come back to earth (Acts 1.8; Jn. 14.15-18).

So you are relying on the Transitive property. What "Matthew" says is irrelevant to what "Luke" says...they were different authors with different theologies. Just because Matthew believed that Jesus shared God's authority and Luke believed the Son and the Spirit were the same, doesn't get us to the Trinity. Matthew and Luke don't even portray Jesus as God. They show him to be the SON of God...and not EQUAL with God. Not evidence

> Jesus' baptism scene in the Synoptic Gospels is a place where Father, Son, and Spirit all function as a unity.

Nope. Here's Mark's account:

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove on him. 11 And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.’

If anything this shows Jesus to be subordinate...not equal to God. It does mention all three, so that's something. But nothing about the three being one. Not evidence

> There are also plenty of the places where the Father is equated with the Son, and the Son is equated with the Spirit. So if the principle holds that if A1 = A2 & A2 = A3, then A1 also equals A3.

This assumes univocality within the text. That's simply not evident.

> Again, "Mark" clearly did not view Jesus as equal with the Father. None of the synoptics say Jesus WAS God...

So we have evidence that A1 =/= A2 which you conveniently omit. Not evidence

The Trinity, both the word and the concept, is not to be found in the Bible. It was developed centuries later.

[jimwalton]

You seem to be under the very false idea that every verse must mention all three Persons of the trinity to be a valid reference to the Trinity. But if A1 = A2, and A2 = A3, and A1 = A3, then A1 = A2 = A3. Since the Father and the Son are one essence in two persons, and since the Son and the Spirit are one essence in two Persons, and the Father and the Spirit are one essence in two Persons, and there are texts that place all three of them in equiposition, then the Trinity is not only a valid doctrine but also an essential one. The scriptural evidence is clear, and it was recognized immediately by the apostles and the early Church.