Board index ‹ The Holy Spirit

[MolyRoly]

This is extraordinarily helpful! Thank you for writing me!

If you have time, I have more questions... I am like the damned hydra: If you cut down one question, two more grow in its place!

If so, I want to ask you about the Holy Spirit -- the presence of God.

The whole issue of salvation has grieved me... One must submit in fear to a God one is unsure exists in order to enter a life of neuroticism about whether one is truly saved because God's presence (much like "God's voice") is undetectable -- whilst never seriously entertaining the thought that God may not exist, lest what one thought was faith wasn't, or that their faith is smaller than a mustard seed. That neatly sums up three years of agony.

Tying in the Holy Spirit, then... What about bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Rom 8:15-16)? Or, what about the intercession of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:xx)? What about God's Spirit revealing God's thoughts (1 Cor 2)? ...To be honest, I feel like throwing up even talking about this, because I've experienced so much anguish hoping that God might be real and might be greater than a world in which He apparently doesn't exist. I was rather hoping that God's presence might be detectable somehow.... I mean, f***, what ever happened to the revolutionary Holy Spirit that was given at Pentecost? Now one has turned to introspection to see whether God Himself is actually present! The focus has become more on the person and their efforts rather than on God and His work -- probably because He doesn't exist! Yeah right about faith being God's work! That's bullshit... it is the work of human beings (otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation). But seriously, you say that we don't hear from God in our inner being... But, then what's all this crap about the Holy Spirit in the New Testament?

You know what I think? I think the Bible is the refuge for Christians to ignore the fact that God's voice and God's presence are nowhere to be found. And, I am not even talking scientifically! I am simply talking about discerning another being! As far as I am concerned, we are all the f*** alone on this miserable planet. But, Christians will then say that they "heard God" or "have experienced God." ...Just as you've argued that "hearing God" doesn't happen, I would suggest that "experiencing Him" likewise doesn't. Experientially, there is no basis for believing that He exists. Experiencing God appears to be no more than a mind game. And, this is me pissed off at this jerk (God) for asking me (through the Bible) to give everything... for nothing. I mean, sure, theologians can tell me everything that I might gain... But, when the rubber meets the road, what really do I gain?

I am furious at the concept of God. If God is a person, then I hate Him. And, this hostility you might interpret as "being in the flesh." f***, this hostility is my not wanting to "be in the flesh" but having no choice, because God is unresponsive! ...God should own up and just give me His Spirit. But, the damn fool resembles NOTHING of a personal God. He is NOWHERE to be found. This is becoming more apparent to me than ever... And I am finally able to see theologians for what they really are... deceived. Screw the problem of evil in the world... A much simpler soteriological problem is at issue here -- and God, the blithering non-existence baffoon, can't do a damned thing about it! I may ask God for help, but apparently I -- capital "I" -- am not doing enough! I may have done more in the past than I am at present, but whatever I did led me to where I am now -- right through the non-existent hands of a non-existent God.

I hate the concept of God -- and God Himself, if He is a person.

I think I may pass out from anger... Unless you can actually calm this storm, this nearly uncontrollable rage and knife-cutting agony, please do not write back. I am in too much pain right now to take anymore from God, or worse, His people.

[jimwalton]

I’m not going to go blathering about with “Here’s what I think,” and “My opinion is…” There is far too much of that going on in the Christian world. I want to let the Bible speak for itself. That, as I have said, is how God reveals himself, and where his voice is most of the time.

I’ll start with John 1.18: “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.” I think it’s safe to say that “everyone” in history has wanted what you want: SHOW ME THE MONEY! “Let me see God.” Luke 10.24 says, “For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.” People wanted to see definitive evidences of the existence of God. So in the days of Egypt and the wilderness wanderings, God did exactly that. Instead of helping, everything got worse. OK plan B: Instead of direct manifestation, God sent messages through humans. They killed them. OK, plan C: God wrote stuff down for posterity. People don’t believe it. But, Luke 10.24, they still wanted direct manifestation. OK, Plan D: So we come to Jn. 1.18. So God came, as a human, at a point in history. “Oh, but I want him in MY point of history.” Geez, we can’t win this game, can we? Even when he was here, people didn’t believe him, and they mocked him, and killed him. But Jn. 1.18 still stands (since it was written down for posterity: Nobody gets to see God. Even the OT manifestations were partial and veiled. But that was THE POINT of Jesus. OK, you want to see? “Here I AM.” Oh, you want him to live for 5,000 years, and always be around for every generation, and be able to be everywhere in the world so everybody gets a chance to have him as their neighbor? SERIOUSLY?? Instead he came, and lived, and it was written down. That way (1) everybody can read and know about it, and (2) he can be around for every generation and in every neighborhood, and (3) he sent a spiritual presence of himself. On to conversation, then, about the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8.15-16: The Holy Spirit doesn’t give concrete, Oh-now-I-can-touch-Him, evidence of God. His presence confers on us our status as “Now I belong to God.” The point is that we are no longer alienated from him, but reconciled and reunited.

Romans 8.26: The Spirit intercedes for us. Everything God does is geared for our success. Even in our attempts at a relationship with Him, we struggle with our own limitations and inadequacies. God himself, as the Spirit, does everything possible to help us out.

1 Corinthians 2.10. The Holy Spirit reveals things to us. God reveals himself to us primarily through his Word, and it is through the Spirit that we can grasp it (1 Cor. 2.12-14). It’s what I said before.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t make God show up in front of our eyes, “Oh, hi there. Didn’t see you at first.” His presence in us is the marker of God’s new life in us (2 Cor. 1.22), and His work is mainly in our hearts, not in our circumstances (Jn. 16.8).

The revolutionary Spirit that was given at Pentecost (Acts 2)? Law of First Occurrence. God makes a splash, it’s written down, and then He goes back to hidden working in hearts, because that’s the only thing that works. Law of First Occurrence, you want to know about. The first time something happens, God is there in spades, to let us know what is going on and what he thinks. After that, He’s back under the radar.
• Nadab & Abihu Lev. 10
• When they stoned that guy for picking fruit on the Sabbath Num. 15.32-36
• Achan Josh 7.
• Ananias & Sapphira Acts 5
• Cain Gn. 4
• Commissioning of Paul & Barnabas Acts 13: Send out missionaries
• choosing David as king 1 Sam. 13: a man after God's own heart

We want this stuff all the time, but it makes things worse, not better, when God is flopping all over the place. Besides, it takes away our humanity, and, just as importantly, is changes the relationship from one of love to something completely different and awful. Can’t work, won’t work, doesn’t work, God won’t stoop to it.

“We’re all alone on this planet”? You think a world with God is a torturous, stupid existence, but I observe in you that a world without him is lonely, meaningless, and vile. Nothing means anything, we live for ourselves, we suffer for meaningless reasons, and we die angry and alone. What do you really gain for there NOT being a God?

I’m married to a wonderful woman, but she sure has her problems. I don’t have the right to say, “I’ll only love you if you are this, and that, and if you this and that, and your personality is as I think it should be.” That’s ridiculous. But you’re saying you’ll only recognize God if he is everything you want him to be, that you are the one who gets to decide what he should be like, and you’ll only accept him on those terms. We don’t get to decide that about our jobs, our courses, our friends, our families, or our spouses. Why in the heck should we get to decide what God should be like, and He has to exist on our terms? I think your frustration that he’s not what you want him to be is making you think a little irrationally. The world doesn’t work that way (“Well, I’ll only blah blah if the weather is nice for 10 days straight, and it only rains at night, and …”). Why is God the only victim of your rage when you can’t control any of your other relationships like that?