Board index ‹ Miracles

[jimwalton]

The Bible teaches that there is only one true God, and therefore by necessity all other gods are false and are the products of misunderstandings, outright lies, erroneous philosophical and theological thought, and sometimes deliberate misleading. Since God, and the messengers under his command, are not involved in such deceit (a kingdom divided against itself can't stand), all miracles in other religions are perpetrated by spiritual powers that are not God and not from his camp, which would mean Satanic or demonic powers.

Truth, by definition, is quite limiting and restrictive. Of all the numbers in existence, 2 + 2 only equals one of them. Just one. Only one note on the piano is middle C. We are not free, if we are interested in truth, to generate our own rendition of things. Instead, we must use our reasoning power to discover what is.

Christianity and Hinduism are contradictory, and while it's possible that neither are true, it is not possible that both are true. The heart of philosophical Hinduism is self-deification. "Man is God in a temporary state of self-forgetfulness." But the union of the personal with the impersonal absolutely defies language, reason, and existential realities. As such, it is not philosophically coherent, and it is directly contradictory to the teachings of the Bible. The bottom line is that the Hindus point to their Scriptures as truth. But if that’s the case, then Hinduism cannot claim that all ways are true for the simple reason that some religions (Muslims, Buddhists, and Christians) deny the eternal veracity of the Vedas. Even some Hindus deny the claim, so there are even self-contradictions. Are there no gods, or are there many? Is ultimate reality impersonal, or is it that "truth is God and God is truth"? The worship of various life forces and natural phenomena are considered idolatrous by Christians, and therefore not originating with the true God, and therefore of a spiritual source that is untruthful.

That's not to say that every person from every non-abrahamic religion who has experienced miracles is a victim of this. Sometimes in the Bible God does miracles in the lives of those who don't follow him to convince them of himself or to draw them to himself.

The theology and practical analysis of miracles is extremely difficult, for even in the Bible there is no specific teaching given to show us how to distinguish true miracles from God from miracles from other sources. With our eyes and ears it's not always possible to discern the source, though in the Bible the miracles are often accompanied by revelation (the interpretation of a prophet, for instance) to make clear that the miracle was from God or from another source.

[Captain]

Can you give me an example of where in the Bible it says that there are other miracle-doing beings?

[jimwalton]

Sure. In Rev. 13.3, the dragon gave the beast great power and authority (v. 2), and in v. 3 one of the heads suffers a fatal wound and dies, but it comes back to life. And in Rev. 3.13-14, the "other" beast performs great and miraculous signs, such that the nations are deceived.

In Exodus 7.10-11, the sorcerers were able to replicate a miracle Moses was doing. So also in 7.22 & 8.7. But they hit their limit in 8.18 and the rest of the plagues.

In 2 Thessalonians 2.9, it says that the "Lawless One," in accordance with the work of Satan, was able to do all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs, and wonders.

In Matthew 24.24, Jesus speaks of false prophets performing great signs and miracles that deceive people.

[Happy Blabber]

There are things which can be done for ischaemic strokes. There are also surgeries which can be done for haemorrhagic strokes. And ischaemic strokes can be incredibly mild compared to haemorrhagic strokes.

If the same events - rapid recovery from ischaemic stroke - could conceivably happen without prayer, is it a miracle as well?

[jimwalton]

Yes there are. The tPA can be given if it's still within a 3-hour window. But if it's a hemorrhagic stroke, giving tPA can make it worse. Usually the type of stroke is determined by an MRI scan, which they were unable to give him because he had a pacemaker. Therefore they were unable to determine what type of stroke and where it was located within the 3-hour limit, and therefore they were unable to administer tPA, and therefore all they were only able to monitor him. In subsequent days they were able to do other diagnostic tests to determine the type (ischemic attack) and location (brain stem) of his stroke. By then he was well on his way to recovery.

And of course rapid recovery from ischemic stroke could conceivably happen without prayer. We're left to interpret the events as we see them. Was it a miracle or wasn't it? He was admitted to the hospital on Sunday night. After spending several hours trying to treat him for drug overdose (because his symptoms could have indicated that, and how many 19-year-olds have strokes??), they determined his system was clean and started suspecting stroke. But time was now short, and the presence of his pacemaker made an MRI out of the question. We as parents were called and apprised of the situation that his life was on the line. Diagnostic attempts continued through the night. The doctors worked, but were unable to do anything but monitor as they tried to determine what it was and what to do. The church prayed. As I said, at 9 a.m. he spoke clearly to us. Inferring to a reasonable conclusion, I'm left with...

1. It just happened. What a lucky dude. Such things happen, and he won the coin toss.
2. Prayer brought about a miracle on some order.

[Dominoes]

> Since God, and the messengers under his command, are not involved in such deceit (a kingdom divided against itself can't stand)

Actually this very reference (Luke 11:18, Mark 3:23, Matthew 12:26), is used to refer to Satan, and is the very reason why I don't think Satan can do good works and miracles.

> The Bible teaches that there is only one true God

Incidentally, so does the Upanishads. Atman is Brahman.

> therefore by necessity all other gods are false

To me the logical conclusion is that there are not other Gods, and man's attempt to understand God falls under this proclamation by Paul in Romans 1:20: "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Religions seem to be more the same than different.

> The heart of philosophical Hinduism is self-deification.

Maybe you forget this Psalm? The one that Jesus stood on in John 10:34 as he defended his own divinity: "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' (Psalm 82:6). Be careful not project your dualistic-Creator god assumptions onto their monostic-Manifestor god. Saying that the Atman is Brahman (the Self is God) is not some kind of attempt to usurp a separate God, it is the attempt to state clearly the natural state of a God who manifests. It's the muddled ego (Sanskrit literally: making the noise "I") that interferes with this truth and creates suffering.
I recommend meditating on what Christ meant in the mystical book of John when he prayed for oneness over his disciples. I also recommend a word study on the Old Testament concept of nephesh.

> But if that’s the case, then Hinduism cannot claim that all ways are true for the simple reason that some religions

They can and do. Because God manifests this earth, God is not separate from it. So all who play are simply extensions of God. Thus all prophets are valid, and in fact the Buddha and Christ easily work into the "pantheon" of manifestation of the one Brahman (God by another name, I think Paul would say).

I highly recommend Sri Aurobindo's Life Divine. It is a towering giant of religious philosophy.

[jimwalton]

In a sense you're right that the "kingdom divided against itself" comment is used to refer to Satan, but remember that the accusation was that Jesus was accused of performing miracles in the power of Satan—that's what brought on the statement. They obviously believed that Satan could do miracles.

> and is the very reason why I don't think Satan can do good works and miracles.

In Rev. 13.3, the dragon gave the beast great power and authority (v. 2), and in v. 3 one of the heads suffers a fatal wound and dies, but it comes back to life. And in Rev. 3.13-14, the "other" beast performs great and miraculous signs, such that the nations are deceived.

In Exodus 7.10-11, the sorcerers were able to replicate a miracle Moses was doing. So also in 7.22 & 8.7. But they hit their limit in 8.18 and the rest of the plagues.

In 2 Thessalonians 2.9, it says that the "Lawless One," in accordance with the work of Satan, was able to do all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs, and wonders.

In Matthew 24.24, Jesus speaks of false prophets performing great signs and miracles that deceive people.

> "The Bible teaches that there is only one true God." Incidentally, so does the Upanishads. Atman is Brahman.

Hinduism is actually unable to define the divine. According to it, we are part and parcel of the divine universe. Is the divine outside of me or within me? Is there a god who needs me to bring him to birth so that my deluded self will cease to be deluded and will emerge divine as the true self? In Hinduism personal deities are erupted by the millions. And while Brahman is the ultimate essence of all things, it is an impersonal absolute. The indefinite is united with the impersonal to avoid the illusory.

In Christianity man is not divine, God is personal, atonement is necessary, and righteousness is gained through God's personal and substitutionary sacrifice of his blood. These concepts sit in direct opposition to Hindu teachings.

> John 10:34

The judges of Israel abused their office, and God is represented in Psalms 82.6 as calling them "gods" because they were God's representatives. See Exodus 21.6; 22.8 where the word rendered judges is *elohim*, gods. Jesus meets the rabbis on their own ground in a thoroughly Jewish way. Jesus' course of reasoning is: if these unjust judges could be called gods, how do I blaspheme in calling myself son of God, since the Father has consecrated me and sent me on a special mission to the world?

In Psalms 82.6, the unjust judges of Israel are reprimanded for their irresponsible, less-than-godly conduct. Both ancient and recent investigations of Psalm 82 have made us aware that elohim in vv. 1, 6 may not refer to human judges that all. Pagan gods, angels, and other suggestions have been defended as better referents for the term. For our purposes, however, it is sufficient to note that the context and John 10 involves the contrast between man and God (especially evident in v. 33) and that Jesus puts the quote from Psalm 82 into service in this context. He is not saying that men are divine or can reach divinity. It is certain that, as employed in John 10, the term *theoi* (gods) quoted from Psalm 82 refers to men. This would accord well with the majority rabbinic view that the Psalm was addressed to Israel just after they had received the law, which is most likely behind its use in John 10.

In what sense then are these unjust judges addressed as "gods" in the Psalm? According to Jesus in John 10.35, the judges were those to whom the word of God came—that is, they had been entrusted with the oracles of God as part of a divine call to judge Israel. Clearly, authority and responsibility concerning God's revealed purposes are at stake when *elohim* is used of these leaders. It is the former of these that men are most eager to attain, but the latter that God prizes more highly.

Psalm 82 expresses the failure of Israel’s judges to wield their authority in keeping with God’s standards of justice. The lessons of Israel's history teach that men prove unworthy bearers of the title *god*.

It's incorrect interpretation to muddle all of this into a juxtaposition of Christianity and Hinduism.

> I recommend meditating on what Christ meant in the mystical book of John when he prayed for oneness over his disciples. I also recommend a word study on the Old Testament concept of nephesh.

I have done both of these.

> Because God manifests this earth, God is not separate from it.

Genesis 1.1 gives us the first piece of evidence that in Biblical theology is is separate from his creation. Heb. 1.10-11 confirm that status, as God is radically distinguished from all things created. Pantheism is not reasonable, and it is not compatible with Christianity. A god who is essentially synonymous with the universe and its varied components could never be the Cause of the universe. If this is true, the distinction between good and evil ultimately disappears. Everything is relative. The problem with this worldview is that it fails to adequately deal with the existence of real evil in the world. If god is the essence of all life-forms in creation, then both good and evil are divine and the same essence. Wars, murder, rape, and cancer are all part of god. It makes everything meaningless, and it makes life an absurdity.
Pantheism is completely foreign to biblical theology.

[Progedy]

I'm happy for the recovery of your son. Regarding the status of "miracle", I think the odds of spontaneous recovery are not too long that this can be considered " outside the laws of nature ". You even admitted yourself that it may not be uncommon. This small survey found the percentage of spontaneous recovery to be about a quarter: http://m.stroke.ahajournals.org/content/26/8/1358.full

Just because modern medicine can not currently do something doesn't mean that it must be a miracle.

[jimwalton]

The definition of a miracle as being "outside the laws of nature" is where I think we're running into a barrier. I don't define miracle that way. I believe that definition comes from philosopher David Hume, who said a miracle was a suspension of the laws of physics. I think he's mistaken. The Bible never claims that God violated the laws he himself imposed on the world as a theatrical device only fit to impress impressionable savages. Any Christian who has read the Bible would more likely contend that miracles are the forces of nature (yes, physics), but at a different speed and on a different scale. Wine always comes from water, but it gets sucked up the vine, grows in the grapes, gets stomped and fermented over the process of months or years. Or, a miracle makes it happen *now*. People's bodies heal, but when Jesus does it in an instant, that's a miracle. Bread turns into more bread, and fish into more fish all the time, but Jesus did it instantly. Maybe a miracle is God working with the laws of nature, not against them. Maybe it's Hume's definition, and your understanding, where the problem lies. Maybe the laws of nature are naturally recurring events, and a miracle is a naturally nonrecurring event. After all, the laws of nature are not really laws, but rather more accurately forces (gravitational, electromagnetic, weak and strong field forces) and constructs (velocity, mass, energy, acceleration). Einstein's theory of relativity lets us know that velocity makes a difference, and can come into play in ways we are yet deciphering. It's quite possible that God has forces as yet unknown to us, and can manipulate velocity to initiate relative states.

Sometimes miracles are a matter of timing. The event itself is natural, but the precision of timing lends to a divine cause, such as a swarm of destructive locusts in the plagues of Egypt, or an earthquake at the blowing of the trumpets at Jericho (which lies on a fault line). But the event occurred just as the staff was raised, or the trumpets were blown.

Other miracles are a matter of coincidence. Someone has a stroke; the doctors make the person comfortable; the church prays and the person recovers. Who can say what was the causal agent, but prayer and divine healing have just as much reason as "it just happens sometimes".

So I agree that "Just because modern medicine can not currently do something doesn't mean that it must be a miracle." No contention there. But I also say that just because something happens doesn't mean God wasn't involved. Who can say? And I certainly don't agree that "miracle" should be defined as "an event outside of the laws of nature."

[Progedy]

Wine comes from grapes and yeast fermentation. What Jesus allegedly did at Cana was transmute matter, from H2O to a much more complex group of molecules. I'm afraid that's not physics. That's very clearly modifying the atoms of matter, without any of the extreme by-products of fusion such as heat.

When the Jews fled Egypt, god supposedly sent a pillar of fire to cover their escape into a parted sea. This does not sound like some incredibly well-timed natural phenomena.

Regarding your argument that miracles may not necessarily be "theatrical devices only fit to impress impressionable savages", I submit to you that many times throughout the bible, god and Jesus and their prophets lament that people continuously need to see or demand to see miracles as a form of proof.

Earlier, in Exodus 4:1-9, god is arguing with Moses about going to Egypt. Moses says "But what is the Israelites don't believe me?" So god shows Moses 3 different miracles that Moses can perform to convince the Jews. Later in the desert, god is about to write on the second set of stone tablets. Exodus 34:10 states

Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you.
When the wandering Jews started complaining about lack of food, Exodus 16 states that god answered their grumblings in order to prove whom he was:

11 The Lord said to Moses, 12 “I have heard the grumbling of the Israelites. Tell them, ‘At twilight you will eat meat, and in the morning you will be filled with bread. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.’”

Even Jesus noted that his followers needed to see miracles in John 4:48: "Unless you people see signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."

For a much longer list of when the bible states that miracles were used as proof of god, his power, or his presence, please take a look at this link: http://gospelway.com/god/evidences-miracles.php