Board index ‹ Miracles

[Elvira]

And then I want to ask questions about it. I won't be a jerk, but be prepared for people to question it and explain why it was one for you.

[jimwalton]

Craig Keener has written a two-volume set (http://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/miracles/335370) studying both the New Testament and current day miracles. You may want to check that out if you're serious and not just trolling. There's also a 45-minute youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn73J9A0SnU) of him presenting his research, if you want to sit for that long.

As far as me personally, my son, at 19 years old, was suddenly rushed to the hospital with a life-threatening stroke. It was a Sunday evening, he was totally incoherent, and his one side was non-functional. When he talked it was total babel. The doctors said he may not live, and if he did, his functionality might be minimal. His church gathered to pray, and by email and Facebook, people all over the world also prayed. The next morning the church had a special prayer meeting at 6 in the morning. My wife and I went into his room at 9 am on Monday morning. He said to us (I kid you not), "Hi Mom. Hi Dad. What's going on?" I was THERE. I consider this to be miraculous. Later diagnoses identified that the stroke was in his brain stem, where life functions reside. And yet the very next morning, after the prayers of many, he was talking coherently, and today lives a productive life.

[Baby Llama]

Just out of curiosity, what do you make of Hindus who experience miracles by their gods? Are those miracles too? Are Krishna and Ganesha intervening on the laws of the universe?

[jimwalton]

The Bible is clear that God is not the only spiritual being who can do miracles. Satan is capable of them, as well as other angelic and demonic forces. So what I make of Hindus who experience miracles by their gods is that spiritual beings are real and they are able to effect miraculous phenomena.

And just for point of clarification, though you didn't ask for it, I don't define a miracle as necessarily intervening on the laws of the universe. There are different kinds of miracles in the Bible, some of which are much more an issue of timing that of any intervention (such as possibly an earthquake just as the trumpets blew at Jericho to cause a part of the wall to collapse and allow the Israelite army to enter).

[Mr. Bojangles]

Yeah, that's not a miracle, dude. Be serious. That's a dude recovering from a stroke like lots and lots of other people do all the time. Be thankful to the medical staff. They're the ones who saved your son.

[jimwalton]

The doctors hadn't done anything, because there was nothing to be done. He had had an ischemic stroke, and there was nothing they could do except monitor his condition. The medical staff had done nothing except monitor his vitals, so they weren't the ones who saved him. And I'm not stupid enough to think that recovery from stroke is uncommon, but given the situation, the prognosis on Sunday night, the prayer meeting at 6 and the recovery by 9, I regard it all as highly unusual, not medically predicted, and not medically attributable. Miracles don't have to be weird things to qualify as such.

[Baby Llama]

Additionally, the Vedas tell us that the Hindu pantheon are the true dieties. Considering this, and the fact that Hinduism existed before any of the Abrahamic religions, is it not possible that it is you who is being deceived by 'other' spiritual entities?

[jimwalton]

Hinduism is an extremely complex religion, but you most likely know that within the various streams of Hindu thought there are multiple answers to the question, "Who or what is god?" Hindus can believe that there is one god, 330 million gods, or no god at all. The Vedas, the most ancient of Hindu scriptures, which are accepted by most Hindus as normative, teach that atman is Brahman, or "the soul is god," meaning that god is in each of us and each of us is part of god. So you're being a bit disingenuous to claim that the Vedas teach us that the Hindu pantheon are the true deities. In addition, my research on Hinduism shows that it arose in the 4th century BC when Aryans conquered much of present day India. Their pantheon of gods (similar to that of the Greeks) combined with indigenous Indian traditions of meditation to form what we now call Hinduism. Wikipedia places pre-vedic religion (the precursor to Hinduism) at c. 1750 BC, still after the time of Abraham. Obviously, claims for the primitive origins of Hinduism reach far back into time, but so also claims for the origins of Judaism/Christianity, which makes claims of "in the beginning." Your assertion of Hinduism predating Judaism/Christianity is an opinion, argued by scholars without conclusion, and therefore not substantial enough to support your argument.

[Elvira]

Wonderful response. I'm inclined to say things such as 'it was a miracle I had the foresight to call a friend today' but understand that most people would rip that to shreds. I liked hearing your experience.

[Baby Llama]

So then which would you figure that Hindus are experiencing when they claim to witness miracles by their gods? Satan himself? Demons? Angels?
Do you think that every person from every non-abrahamic religion who have experienced miracles is a victim of this?