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[Shark bait]

> So, let's talk. Where am I being unfair?

Sure let's take a look:

> Islam, from its inception, spread by warfare.
> Islam from the outset was a religion spread by military conquest

This is patently false, it's so false that even Christian missionaries such as Jay Smith acknowledge it and try to say that Islam was only peaceful during the Meccan period, and then changed during the Medina period.

> Mohammad was a conqueror.

Correction, the Messenger ﷺ of God was very successful overall, and that also included being a good leader to the people.

> But I meant when I said it's all quite complex. Nothing is quite so simple. Imagine writing a book about the Trump presidency. What are the ODDS that anyone could show, 100 or 1000 years from now, what this is really like?

The Hadith tradition is a pretty good example, you seem to think that it would be something extraordinary, almost as if it requires an act of God, I'd suggest getting into that.

> It's in the Qur'an. In total there are over 100 verses in the Qur’an enjoining Muslims to fight, kill, torture, rape, pillage, and conquer in the name of Allah against non-Muslims.

lol, I'm not sure about where you get your statistics from but I know for a fact that is false, maybe fight and kill your enemy is the only thing that's true from what you said here. Are you really going to dispute fighting your enemy? It is what you're arguing the crusades did, fight off their enemy right?

> 64% of the contents of the Qur’an is driven by the question of what to do with Kafir

Even more statistics... And oh I thought you might have had an idea of what is meant by kaffir.

"unbelievers, not just defined as those unaccepting of Islam, but as “evil, disgusting, and the lowest form of life”

But it turns out that you don't and once again, you are wrong and spreading lies against the word of God.

What do you think of those people that tried to crucify Jesus? What about the ones spreading lies about him trying to sway people away from God's guidance? What about those that torture your brothers and sisters in humanity? What about Isis? Do you consider them evil? Lowest form of life because they take the gift that God has given them and commit such attrocious acts in his name no less? What about the crusaders that raped in the name of God? Are they all just silly mistakes that can be brushes to the side?

Actually you know what, let's ignore your opinion, what does GOD say about Soddom and Gamorra? ACtually not even Soddom and Gamorrah, people that do not welcome you

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Are you in disagreement with God's sentiment? Are the people that deserve such a fate not considered evil?

> The Kafir have no human or civil rights. Any non-Muslim can be killed, sold into slavery, sexually abused, raped, mistreated, dismembered, or mutiliated.

Even more lies. Dude just stop lying. Everyone knows the rules of War, heck as a Muslim it's not allowed to even strike a woman or a child on the battlefield during a war context trying to kill you unless necessary, much less just an innocent minding their own business in everyday life.
​
Do you still think you were being fair? I'm not arguing that all Muslims were perfect and followed Islam, but please do not spread lies about God and his messenger ﷺ.
​
And to counter your violent Islamic expansion here have a Historian quote:

However, even in the ranks of the Orientalists there were those, such as Sir Thomas Arnold and De Lacy O’Leary, who chopped away at the narrative of forced conversions to Islam. O’Leary wrote in 1923 that “the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.”[8]

And also, here's a post from reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1la8n4/i_received_this_article_today_in_an_email_its/

You seem to share similar values with the one that sent that original email, because you are sincere, it might serve you well to read on its refutations.

[jimwalton]

> "Islam from the outset was a religion spread by military conquest" This is patently false.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Muhammad didn't win success as a spiritual leader at Yathrib by armed force? Or that he didn't later re-enter Mecca in 630 with his armies to smash idols surrounding the Ka'ba? Or that he didn't then lead those armies to conquer the greater part of the Arabian peninsula? Or that there weren't bloody wars of succession after Muhammad died? A year after Muhammad's death, his armed forces burst out of the Arabian Peninsula to conquer. From the earliest days of Islam, Muslims have divided the world into Dar al Islam, where Islam reigns, and Dar al Harb (the abode of War), where Islam must be spread by the sword. Under Abu Bakr, Omar, and Othman, within 20 years of Muhammad's death Islamic armies conquered Syria (in 635), Iraq (637), Palestine (640), Egypt (642), and in the 650 the entire Persian Empire. They pushed east toward India, west across northern Africa, and across the Strait of Gibraltar in Spain, Portugal, and France. They were halted by the Franks near Tours in 732.

Are you seriously trying to tell me this didn't happen?

> "Mohammad was a conqueror." Correction, the Messenger ﷺ of God was very successful overall, and that also included being a good leader to the people.

Correction. Mohammed took Yathrib by force, Mecca by force, and also the Arabian Peninsula.

> lol, I'm not sure about where you get your statistics from but I know for a fact that is false, maybe fight and kill your enemy is the only thing that's true from what you said here.

And who is the enemy? It's the Kafir.

• Surah 2.190-196: Kill infidels.
• Surah 2.216: Fighting is the accepted way of life. It is good for you.
• Surah 4.89, 91: Kill them wherever you find them
• Surah 5.33-35: Do you duty and kill infidels.
• Surah 8.39: Fight until no one but Muslims are left.
• Surah 9.5: Kill the pagans wherever you find them
• Surah 33.60: Seize and murder
• Surah 47.4: Smite their necks, overcome them, make them prisoners
• Surah 66.9: Kill infidels.

As I said, there are over 100 of these.

Subjugating (with license to kill) Kafir is not a sidebar issue in the Qur'an or the Hadith and Sira. Over 3/4s of the Sira records his struggle with the Kafir and describes all sorts of jihad and political domination against them.

Islam is 5 pillars, but a 6th was introduced by Al-Sarakhsi (a Hanafi imam) in the 11th century: Jihad. (Source: Nayzee, *Ijtihad*).

Muhammad abd-al-Salam Faraj: "Whoever wants to be occupied with the highest degree of obedience and wants to reach the peak of devotion must commit himself to jihad for the cause of Allah."

> What do you think of those people that tried to crucify Jesus?

This is a red herring. The subject is the violence endemic to Islam. But of the people who crucified Jesus, they were murderers. He was innocent.

> What about the ones spreading lies about him trying to sway people away from God's guidance?

Lying is wrong.

> What about Isis? Do you consider them evil?

I think the members of ISIS are murderers, and it's wrong.

> What about the crusaders that raped in the name of God?

This is wrong if they did it. If they did it, it's evil. That doesn't detract from evils that others also perpetuate. But it's not a teaching of Christianity to rape and kill one's enemies.

> Are you in disagreement with God's sentiment? Are the people that deserve such a fate not considered evil?

These people are not considered evil, but we do walk away and leave them to their own fate. That's what the verses are talking about. We don't slaughter them. Appropriate judgment for what they do belongs to God, not to us.

>> The Kafir have no human or civil rights. Any non-Muslim can be killed, sold into slavery, sexually abused, raped, mistreated, dismembered, or mutiliated.
> Even more lies. Dude just stop lying.

I've already shown you some texts from the Qur'an, so it's no lie.

• Sura 6.45: Annihilate the Kafir
• Surah 40.35: Hate the Kafir
• Surah 8.12; 47.4: Behead them
• Surah 23.97: They are evil.
• Surah 6.111: They are ignorant
• In the biography of Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq, he says, "On the occasion of Khaybar, Mohammed put forth new orders about forcing sex with captive women. If the woman was pregnant she was not to be used for sex until after the birth of the child. Nor were any women to be used for sex who were unclean with regard to Muslim laws about menstruation."
• In the Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith (5,58,148), he writes, "“Muhammed then said, ‘Saed, give these people [the Jews of Medina] your verdict.’ Saed replied, ‘Their soldiers should be beheaded and their women and children should become slaves.’ Mohammed, pleased with the verdict, said, ‘You have made a ruling that Allah or a king would approve of.’ ”

> Do you still think you were being fair?

Absolutely.

[Shark bait]

What would you do to the rapists? Give them a kiss on the cheek while they rape? Let them rape when you can stop them? No you fight them and spread God's justice. How about conquerors coming to take your land?

It's baffling to me how you're trying to wiggle your way out of that, are you honestly saying that as humans we don't have duties to uphold such as helping the oppressed?

And the fact that you don't know what a Kafir is is just too much. How can you argue when you know so little?

Neither do you know what the word Jihad means.

And with how you're so quick to call out Islam on evil but you don't really have a clear criteria for what makes something evil, you simply consider it wrong but not evil.

And not only that but you forget that the Quran is Arabic and trying to argue a straw man about evil.

There's just so much wrong from your side it's impossible to reach a mutual agreement, which is why I suggest that you learn instead of argue blindly.

The fact that you'd even try to call Madina Yathrib already shows where your intentions lie, at the same place that the people who tried to incite violence against the Prophet by calling them O people of Yathrib.

Bloody wars happen, it's what wars are they are bloody. You tried to purport the infamously absurd orientalist myth that Islam spread by the sword, and when refuted you try to say that I claimed that no wars happened? And you call that being fair?

> Appropriate judgment for what they do belongs to God, not to us.

So God destroyed Soddom and Gamorra for being anything but evil? Just wrong, but not evil.

I suggest you drop whatever source you're using because it's clear just how little you know and actually start learning instead of arguing.

[jimwalton]

> What would you do to the rapists? Give them a kiss on the cheek while they rape? Let them rape when you can stop them? No you fight them and spread God's justice.

No, you don't fight (go to war against?) rapists. You arrest them, try them in a court, and punish them appropriately.

> How about conquerors coming to take your land?

You fight them. Resist. Defend your homeland.

> It's baffling to me how you're trying to wiggle your way out of that, are you honestly saying that as humans we don't have duties to uphold such as helping the oppressed?

I have never said any such thing. Of course we have duties to help the oppressed.

> And the fact that you don't know what a Kafir is is just too much. How can you argue when you know so little?

A Kafir is a non-Muslim. It is someone who is not a believer in or follower of Allah. One who rejects (covers) the true belief.

> Neither do you know what the word Jihad means.

Jihad (Holy War) is the struggle against all who oppose Allah.

> And with how you're so quick to call out Islam on evil but you don't really have a clear criteria for what makes something evil, you simply consider it wrong but not evil.

Of course I have clear criteria for what makes something evil. It's not fair of you to assume the worst.

> Bloody wars happen, it's what wars are they are bloody.

My point is that Islam spread by war and conquest, which is undeniably true.

> So God destroyed Soddom and Gamorra for being anything but evil? Just wrong, but not evil.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because their sin was grievous and beyond hope of redemption (Gn. 18.20). Their sin, as described in the Bible:

• It was a city of corrupt, aggressive, hostile lust.
• Injustice and bloodshed that had filled the city.
• Sodom was marked by affluence, arrogance, and callousness: its inhabitants had too much money, were prideful, and continually neglected the poor and needy.
• They were cruel, oppressive, sexually immoral, violent, corrupt, arrogant, greedy, and stingy.

> I suggest you drop whatever source you're using because it's clear just how little you know and actually start learning instead of arguing.

I use many multiple sources to get the broad and accurate picture.