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[Glen Hunter]

Maybe it'd be clearer if I use an example.

Maybe the first cause made a plate first. Then the next thing it did was make our universe. The plate is outside the universe.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about; do we have any way to know whether our universe was the first or the hundredth or the
last thing made?

[jimwalton]

I'm trying hard, but it's tough to tell what you're getting at. You still seem to be barking up a non-existent tree. We define "the universe" as "everything that exists." Theories about multiverses at this point are nothing more than idle speculation. As far as the creation of spiritual beings, we are also in the dark. The Bible doesn't mention their creation.

So you're right that we don't have any way to know whether our universe was the first or the 100th thing made. On the other hand, there's absolutely no reason to think there was anything made besides our universe. But taking all the information we have, (1) science tells us there was "stuff" before life, (2) logic tells us there was stuff before life, (3) the Bible tells us there was stuff before life. What other sources of information do we have for these kinds of questions?

I guess I'm still interested in what your angle is. You've pushed this point about 8 times, and my explanations don't satisfy. What are you really getting at?

[Glen Hunter]

Ah, okay, I think I see where we're missing each other.

When I was saying "the universe," I meant the space and time that 100 billion galaxies exist in, while you sound like you mean all that PLUS anything else that exists.

I think my question might make more sense if I stop saying "the universe" and just say...what? Is there a particular word you use for the thing that has 100 billion galaxies, but doesn't also include other things that might theoretically exist outside of those galaxies and the space around them? Maybe "the observable universe?"

So, my question is, there are lots of things made, including the observable universe. Maybe there are things outside the observable universe.

Would it be fair to say something like "The first cause is also the thing that designed our observable universe, unless something else from outside the observable universe created the observable universe"?

[jimwalton]

I'm OK with your terminology of using "the universe" as OUR observable universe. (Since we know of no other universes, let alone other observable universes.)

Now, to your question. I regret to say I'm still a little confused. What I think is fair to say is something like, "The first cause is what designed our observable universe, and we can safely say that first cause is the only entity outside of our observable universe." That seems to be different from what you are implying—that there may be more than one first cause out there in the wild blue yonder. Am I understanding you rightly?

[Glen Hunter]

Yes, I think you're understanding me.

How could we know that our observable universe is the only thing the first cause created? That's the core idea

[jimwalton]

Because we have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. All evidence supports the thesis that our observable universe is all there is. Idle speculation doesn't take up anywhere and doesn't lead to meaningful dialogue.

[Glen Hunter]

In your opinion, is there any evidence either way that God created things outside our observable universe?

[jimwalton]

It's a tricky question. Since God created everything, God also created spiritual beings. Cherubim, seraphim, and angels are not material beings like our observable universe, and so I would agree with the statement that God created things outside our observable universe. The problem is that we have absolutely no information about their creation, and so it's impossible to know anything about them for creating a case in one direction or another.

What are you getting at? What point are you trying to create or pursue? What is your premise, hypothesis, or contention?

[jimwalton]

It's a tricky question. Since God created everything, God also created spiritual beings. Cherubim, seraphim, and angels are not material beings like our observable universe, and so I would agree with the statement that God created things outside our observable universe. The problem is that we have absolutely no information about their creation, and so it's impossible to know anything about them for creating a case in one direction or another.

What are you getting at? What point are you trying to create or pursue? What is your premise, hypothesis, or contention?

[Glen Hunter]

The central point, right now, is just that I didn't know of any way for us to say that we knew what, if anything, the first cause created before, or after our observable universe.

Without that, we don't know what else is out there.

Without that, we can't say if the first cause also caused our observable universe, or if something else might have.

As such, we can say that it might have been the first cause, but it also might have been something else. As far as I can tell, anyway.