So I would like to start by saying I've seen an angel before and some other miracles in my life. However, I no longer believe for several reasons.
1. Miracles can't prove this religion over any other. When you hear about other religions they seem fantastic and stupid, i.e., Scientology having spaceships, Hinduism having a god for every day of the week. However, Christianity seems equally silly to me by having us believe in virgin births and walking on water, etc.
2. Modern science seems to disagree with Genesis. There doesn't seem to be any way for geologic events to have happened in the time allotted by the Old Testament. If Genesis isn't literally true, then how can you trust the bible to be true?
3. The Bible seems to have philosophical contradictions. I'm not counting minuscule contradictions like spelling and translation errors. However, the Bible says all sin is equal in God's eyes, but Christians act like homosexuality is so much worse than other sins. (not the best example) The New Testament is very anti-violence, but God is very violent in the Old Testament. Isn't God unchanging in nature? Many many more philosophical contradictions. Likely due to its numerous authors separated by many years.
On the flip side, I don't want to be an atheist.
1. I've seen what at the time I thought was an angel and have had an out of body experience, have had prophetic dreams and have seen sunflower seeds multiply. I can't explain this and there is no proof or reason for you to even believe I've seen these things.
It's super-depressing to think that this is it, after believing in an afterlife for so many years. It just sucks. I would prefer the existence of God or something spiritual.
2. The existence of morality and other metaphysical aspects of human nature. I know many people say morality is dictated by society, but I thing that is only moderately true. When looking at human history it seems that their are certain things that all people value and desire. Where did this come from?
Can anyone sway me to commit one way or the other?
I am agnostic now, but I would like to have a final answer to the god question. I would like you to explain why you believe for or against god.
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Re: I'm agnostic now
by jimwalton » Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:29 pm
Penguin, thanks for you honest questions. I would love to address them and have a dialogue with you.
1. You're right that miracles don't prove one religion over another. The Bible is honest about YHWH's people not being the only ones who are capable of miracles. The miracles of the Bible were signs of verification to the message when the accompanied the words of the prophets. In other words, when a prophet said, "To show you God's displeasure over the way you rule the people there won't be rain for 3 years." And then when it didn't rain for 3 years it showed the prophet wasn't just blowing it out his ear. That doesn't mean other people didn't do miracles (they did), but the type of miracle and the timing of it were what was significant. And, of course, some miracles in the Bible were things that others couldn't do, like virgin births and walking on water.
The virgin birth and walking on water, to use your two examples, are only problematic if you don't believe in a deity who is sovereign over all nature and is not subject to its laws. So the discussion there is properly not whether virgin births and walking on water are silly, but whether God's character is such that, as creator of the natural world, he has power over it.
2. If you think modern science seems to disagree with Genesis, I'll guess you are swallowing a distorted view of Genesis. Nowhere (nowhere) does Genesis insist on a young earth. The genealogies of Gen. 5 & 10 are known to be records for a reason (theological organization) rather than genealogies the way (and for the reason) we make them: to include EVERYBODY. The Genesis genealogies don't include everybody, and so establishing a time line for earth based on those is just wrong.
Science and Christianity are not at odds. Science readily explodes the myth of a limited god, but it does not discredit the God of Scripture.
3. The Bible doesn't have philosophical contradictions, but we can't deal with all of these in a few sentences. You raised two in particular:
Christians may act like homosexuality is so much worse than other sins, but the Bible doesn't say that it is. Now, the Bible does say that some sins are worse than others (Jn. 19.11), but it doesn't tell us which are worse. We don't get the list. While some can be intuited (murdering a person is worse than stealing a pack of gum), we're not given the hierarchy. On the other hand, we also recognize that sin is sin, and that's it's still wrong on any level. Stealing a pack of gum is still stealing, just like robbing a bank is, but they are obviously different levels of theft, and therefore one is more wrong than the other, but they're both still wrong. It's in THAT sense that sin is equal in God's eyes.
As far as violence/nonviolence, the only time in the OT that the people of Israel were instructed to fight offensive war was during the conquest. Other than that, there are no commands to violence.
The "many many more philosophical contradictions" you mention are all explainable. We just need to read the Bible more than 1" deep. The Bible is consistent and God is unchanging.
I obviously believe that God is the most logical answer to the world as we see and experience it, and God is the best explanation for the circumstances of life, whether we are looking outward at others or inward to ourselves.
Why do I believe God exists? As I already said, he is the best explanation for what we see. Science is not the appropriate measure to determine the existence of God, just as we don't use kilograms to evaluate distance. We have to infer to the most reasonable explanation. When we talk about things such as morality, human nobility and dignity, personality, intelligence, information systems, and the state of nature as we know it (regular, predictable, orderly, purposeful, beautiful, complex but understandable, causal), God is a sensible and reasonable explanation for it, more so than a system based on accident, chance, and impersonality. We will obviously have to discuss this further, as you wish.
1. You're right that miracles don't prove one religion over another. The Bible is honest about YHWH's people not being the only ones who are capable of miracles. The miracles of the Bible were signs of verification to the message when the accompanied the words of the prophets. In other words, when a prophet said, "To show you God's displeasure over the way you rule the people there won't be rain for 3 years." And then when it didn't rain for 3 years it showed the prophet wasn't just blowing it out his ear. That doesn't mean other people didn't do miracles (they did), but the type of miracle and the timing of it were what was significant. And, of course, some miracles in the Bible were things that others couldn't do, like virgin births and walking on water.
The virgin birth and walking on water, to use your two examples, are only problematic if you don't believe in a deity who is sovereign over all nature and is not subject to its laws. So the discussion there is properly not whether virgin births and walking on water are silly, but whether God's character is such that, as creator of the natural world, he has power over it.
2. If you think modern science seems to disagree with Genesis, I'll guess you are swallowing a distorted view of Genesis. Nowhere (nowhere) does Genesis insist on a young earth. The genealogies of Gen. 5 & 10 are known to be records for a reason (theological organization) rather than genealogies the way (and for the reason) we make them: to include EVERYBODY. The Genesis genealogies don't include everybody, and so establishing a time line for earth based on those is just wrong.
Science and Christianity are not at odds. Science readily explodes the myth of a limited god, but it does not discredit the God of Scripture.
3. The Bible doesn't have philosophical contradictions, but we can't deal with all of these in a few sentences. You raised two in particular:
Christians may act like homosexuality is so much worse than other sins, but the Bible doesn't say that it is. Now, the Bible does say that some sins are worse than others (Jn. 19.11), but it doesn't tell us which are worse. We don't get the list. While some can be intuited (murdering a person is worse than stealing a pack of gum), we're not given the hierarchy. On the other hand, we also recognize that sin is sin, and that's it's still wrong on any level. Stealing a pack of gum is still stealing, just like robbing a bank is, but they are obviously different levels of theft, and therefore one is more wrong than the other, but they're both still wrong. It's in THAT sense that sin is equal in God's eyes.
As far as violence/nonviolence, the only time in the OT that the people of Israel were instructed to fight offensive war was during the conquest. Other than that, there are no commands to violence.
The "many many more philosophical contradictions" you mention are all explainable. We just need to read the Bible more than 1" deep. The Bible is consistent and God is unchanging.
I obviously believe that God is the most logical answer to the world as we see and experience it, and God is the best explanation for the circumstances of life, whether we are looking outward at others or inward to ourselves.
Why do I believe God exists? As I already said, he is the best explanation for what we see. Science is not the appropriate measure to determine the existence of God, just as we don't use kilograms to evaluate distance. We have to infer to the most reasonable explanation. When we talk about things such as morality, human nobility and dignity, personality, intelligence, information systems, and the state of nature as we know it (regular, predictable, orderly, purposeful, beautiful, complex but understandable, causal), God is a sensible and reasonable explanation for it, more so than a system based on accident, chance, and impersonality. We will obviously have to discuss this further, as you wish.
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