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[Good Snot]

I have read through the Bible Three times in three versions (KJV NIV NRSV). I’m rereading NRSV a second time and something has occurred to me I must’ve missed all the times before. What/where/when was the turning point where God tortures torments kills (them of their loved ones) those who do evil in the sight of the lord and out right being bad sinful people to where he becomes all loving and all forgiving? I understand his love is obvious in the Old Testament but there was rare if any forgiveness for any transgressions but then later all is forgiven when honest and steadfast to the laws of God. Certainly curious about this. It’s certainly an extreme swing in upholding judgements of the laws and governance of Gods people.

[jimwalton]

Since you've read it three times, I'm actually surprised that you haven't picked up that God didn't change.

• Both OT & NT demonstrate love as a primary attribute of God (Ex. 34.6; Jn. 3.16; 15.9; and many others)
• Both OT & NT demonstrate justice where it is warranted (Gn. 18.25; Jn. 5.22).
• Both OT & NT demonstrate initiating a covenant to form a people, a community, belonging to God.
• Both OT & NT show God as holy and righteous (Lev. 19.2; Lk. 4.34 and many others)
• In both OT & NT God tests His followers for trust and faithfulness.
• Both OT & NT are as concerned with the heart as with actions (Micah 6.8; Lk. 8.15 and many others)

> God tortures torments

I'd be curious where you read that God tortures and torments people.

> God kills

God judges sin and wrong. We expect no less from a righteous judge. So some guy rapes and murders a child, and the judge says, "Well, I'm a loving person, so I'll let you go." That would be not only horrible, but wrong. So also with God. Jesus also says He is a righteous judge who will judge all humanity.

> I understand his love is obvious in the Old Testament but there was rare if any forgiveness for any transgressions but then later all is forgiven when honest and steadfast to the laws of God.

It's not rare at all. God forgave Abraham for his sins (lying about Sarah and lack of faith by going to Egypt in the first place). God forgave Israel over and over and over through centuries for their wrong and sin. God forgave the Nineties in Jonah. There are plenty of places in the Old Testament. Maybe you should read it again.

[Good Snot]

I appreciate this and yet about the rare statement subjectively it is rare in context to how a handful despite being at the forefront of each instance being told recieved mercy and forgiveness against those who were equally sorry and punished which is thousands upon thousands and in many cases one commuting evil in the sight of the lord may coerce convince others force Israel to do the same and judgment is passed on them. Damned if you do damned if you don’t . Most mercy only occurred to those god particularly favored.

To also answer your question. Despite it being justice inflicting someone with say leprosy would be torment.... on going. Torture would be in the form of striking down ones child regardless of intent. So if you will take the terms loosely.

[jimwalton]

> I appreciate this and yet about the rare statement subjectively it is rare in context to how a handful despite being at the forefront of each instance being told recieved mercy and forgiveness against those who were equally sorry and punished which is thousands upon thousands and in many cases one commuting evil in the sight of the lord may coerce convince others force Israel to do the same and judgment is passed on them.

Yow this is a long sentence that pokes in and out of multiple thoughts. It's very difficult to understand. I'm trying to break it down, but without success. You'll have to try again. Say it differently; break it into coherent thoughts. Let me try.

• "God's forgiveness is rare despite being obvious at the forefront of each event." What you're saying is confusing to me.
• "God says people will receive mercy and forgiveness if people are really sorry, but then he punishes multiple thousands." Yeah, the people He punished were defiant in their sin and there was not only no turning, there was actually instead ramping up to do MORE sin.
• "In many cases one commuting evil ... may coerce convince others force Israel to do the same and judgment is passed on them." You lost me here. What are you saying?

> Damned if you do damned if you don’t .

Certainly not. You have some misunderstanding that needs to be ironed out, but I can't tell yet what it is. Try your "sentence" again as 4 sentences.

> Most mercy only occurred to those god particularly favored

No, this isn't true. But let's go at the conversation again from a different angle. Try again, please.

> To also answer your question. Despite it being justice inflicting someone with say leprosy would be torment.... on going

Many people in the Bible had leprosy, but there's no indication God gave it to them. People get diseases; it's how the world works. God doesn't torment people, though He sometimes judges them. The only person the Bible says God gave "leprosy" to was Miriam, Moses's sister, as a judgment (Numbers 12:10-15). (The term used is a generic term for a wide variety of diseases and conditions [much like our term "cancer"]. Miriam probably didn't have leprosy, but some other sort of skin condition. Moses was given the same thing in Ex. 4.6 as a punishment. But there's nothing here to tell us there was any kind of torment involved.) The punishment fit the crime. She wanted to put herself high above all, in the center of order; the punishment put her down with the lowest, on the periphery of even disorder.

> Torture would be in the form of striking down ones child regardless of intent.

Sooooo, where did God do this?