I seen people pick apart Bible texts and teach us "truth". Can't you pick apart any text like this? I was a Lit. major and am totally accustomed to breaking down ambiguous poetry to find meaning, and have witnessed many revelatory discoveries by analyzing the nonsense out of various writings. I mean no disrespect when I say this, and am not trying to suggest that all books are on the same level. There are, however, a number of holy books that have been passed down over generations, memorized and dissected, and found to have supernatural revelations. And I have seen time and again the magic of people projecting their current self-obsessions to interpret and find deeper levels of meaning in nearly any text, and particularly with the Bible. Can't we walk around mulling over," Humpty Dumpty" long enough to find it can apply to countless aspects of our daily lives, and advise us on love, loss, and the afterlife? (Sorry- I'm getting a bit silly and don't mean that to be as bitingly sarcastic as it sounds).
Why the Bible, and only the Bible, and what makes anyone think they can understand it, and if it's so subjective to the Spirit, how can we trust individual (or our own) interpretations?
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This site is for dialogue, not diatribe. And, by the way, you have to be at least 13 years old to participate. Plus normal things: no judging, criticizing, name-calling, flaming, or bullying. No put-downs, etc. You know the drill.
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Re: Why the Bible and why only the Bible?
by jimwalton » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:42 pm
Your questions are SO excellent, excellent, excellent! Thank you for being so candid with me. Nothing you said sounds “a bit silly”, and it doesn’t sound bitingly sarcastic. Sounds to me like honest questions and realistic thinking.
So, alright, of course any literary text can be stripped down, analyzed, and even brought into one’s soul for life improvement. Ha—even Humpty Dumpty. No offense taken. Here’s where I see legitimate differences. First of all, to me, digesting a literary work for its meaning takes on a different character when it’s about a real relationship. It’s one thing to try to plumb the depths of Shakespeare, and, as you say, one could find truths in the text to meditate on that would make one a better person. But it’s quite another thing if you are away on a trip and your husband sends you a letter. When you read that over and over, it’s not only to sink into its very depths to garner every inch of meaning you can, but it’s also real to you, because this is the man who loves you more than life itself. Shakespeare may nurture you, but a love letter from your lover goes right to the center of your being. Any text can be dissected, but revelations in this book (the Bible) are all about love relationship, and therefore touch me on a different level.
And, as you say, there are several holy books, and they do contain truth. I would never claim that the Bible is the only book with truth, or even the only religious book with truth. Truth is all around us and can be found just about anywhere. We all know that. And I agree with you: people project their self-obsessions, and interpret things the way they want to; they see what they want to see and think what they want to think. Anybody can say anything they want, and it’s just he-said/she-said when it comes to who’s got the truth, whose holy book is right. “I think there’s reincarnation!” “I say there’s one God.” “I say there are lots of gods.” “I say all the gods are the same!” Anybody can say anything they darn well please. Who’s to ever know? “The gods brought rain.” “No they didn’t. That cloud did!” We never get to see Anybody, and God’s work in the world is so non-existent and totally subjective that it’s all a game of who’s cup is the marble under. Since nobody ever gets to see the marble, nobody ever knows, now, do they? That’s why skeptics say to religious folks, “You’re all a bunch of delusional idiots.” And religious folks say to skeptics, “Have fun in hell.” And this is productive conversation?
In the olden days, any conquering army would say, “Our God is going to give us victory,” and the city quaking in fear would say, “Our God will protect us,” and whoever won made sacrifices to their God. Well, that didn’t convince anybody, since every city, every empire, every army had their share of winning and losing. And as far as praying to the gods for crops, rain, babies, food, and what have you, it was all up for grabs as times of plenty and abundance alternated with each other. Nobody could ever tell anything about the nature of the gods, or whose religion was true or right. Whatever. Believe whatever you want.
That is, until Jesus showed up on the scene. What happened around this guy was not a matter of he-said she-said. Everybody knew stuff was happening. Nicodemus in John 3.1: “You’re doing stuff we can’t understand, but we know it’s not from earth.” They had to make up reasons for what was happening, because what was happening was objective and obvious, so they said, “You’re doing this by the power of the devil.” Some said it was from God. Wherever it was from, it was undeniable that it was happening. And Jesus made claims: “It’s from my Father. My Father and I are one.”
I mean, religion is all just whatever you want to believe, until this guy changes the game and says, “OK, just to prove to you that there is a God, and that it’s me, I’m going to come back from the dead.” Well, now we got game. Anybody who can do that has my attention. I’ve done a lot of funerals, but a guy rising out of his casket would have my instant attention. Now in this particular case Jesus predicted it, and said that it would be a proof of his teachings and his self-identity as God.
I almost threw out Christianity a few years back, but I didn’t because I can’t get around the resurrection. I’ve studied it and studied it, looking at historical references, the weight of the evidence in a legal setting, and the options of what all could have happened there. If a guy can come back from the dead, he gets my vote, and yes, that means the others don’t get elected. Oh, they have plenty of religious experiences, and quite valid ones at that. And the other religions—Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism—are packed full with truth. But they’re not true. The guy who resurrected wins, because now it’s not just, “Well I think…blah blah blah.” This guy CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD. That trumps what’s in your hand, no matter what it is. That’s the reason Christianity is true over the others, because the ante has been upped, and though the other players haven’t folded, the game’s over.
To me, now, since Jesus did what only God can do, that makes him divine, and therefore the things that he said and endorsed (the Old Testament) take on a significance that no other book has. Other books are filled with truth, but the Bible, because Jesus came out of his coffin, is on a different plane. It IS truth. That’s what I think, but in my mind there’s real evidence for it. It’s not just subjective opinion.
“What makes anyone think they can understand it, and if it's so subjective to the Spirit, how can we trust individual (or our own) interpretations?” In one sense the Bible is no different in that way from any other writing.
We take words to mean what they normally mean
We can interpret words from their context
We use typical rules of grammar
Etc etc, right?
But I have to add to that. In the other sense, since Jesus came back from dead and because of that gave more-than-credibility to anything he said or endorsed, the Bible says, and I believe rightly so, that because it’s a book about a love relationship, it can only be rightly interpreted by those in love with the writer (something you can understand from my previous illustration). And the Bible also says that because it’s a divine book, people who are spiritually separated from God are blind to its true meaning. The problem is that we’re back to he-said/she-said, and anyone can say, “Oh, this is what this text means,” and spew out their interpretation. Who’s right? Who’s “got it”? Great question. Like any other relationship (and it all just HAS to be taken on this fluid relational level), we have to learn whom we can trust, learn as we go, grow in wisdom, gather as much information as we can, seek the Spirit of God and his guidance, keep checking and double checking what we think with the rest of Scripture, with others we trust, with historical interpretations, and with common sense. Is it subjective? Unfortunately, yeah. But there’s no way around that. So is all interpretation of history (ask any historian). So is a ton of science (ask any scientist how often bias and presuppositions enter into the observation and evaluation phases, and affect the conclusions). So is politics (so many perspectives). And education—your present field. So art and music. Should religion be different? Even if golden tablets descended from the heavens, there are different ways to interpret the sentences. We all know that. Well, should God make sure his words are only interpreted one way—the right way? We’re back to our first discussion and God’s intervention, and how it messes up everything, and so he has to stay out of it in that way. But the Bible says that for those who truly seek Him, his Spirit will guide you in your soul into truth. But it’s still possible to mess up, because our humanity gets in the way. We have to keep reading, thinking, talking, evaluating, checking, and praying, and never get uppity about it. Sure, I’ve come to a point where I’m confident about things, but I’m always looking for more and better and deeper and wider. And I’m open to correction and change.
So, alright, of course any literary text can be stripped down, analyzed, and even brought into one’s soul for life improvement. Ha—even Humpty Dumpty. No offense taken. Here’s where I see legitimate differences. First of all, to me, digesting a literary work for its meaning takes on a different character when it’s about a real relationship. It’s one thing to try to plumb the depths of Shakespeare, and, as you say, one could find truths in the text to meditate on that would make one a better person. But it’s quite another thing if you are away on a trip and your husband sends you a letter. When you read that over and over, it’s not only to sink into its very depths to garner every inch of meaning you can, but it’s also real to you, because this is the man who loves you more than life itself. Shakespeare may nurture you, but a love letter from your lover goes right to the center of your being. Any text can be dissected, but revelations in this book (the Bible) are all about love relationship, and therefore touch me on a different level.
And, as you say, there are several holy books, and they do contain truth. I would never claim that the Bible is the only book with truth, or even the only religious book with truth. Truth is all around us and can be found just about anywhere. We all know that. And I agree with you: people project their self-obsessions, and interpret things the way they want to; they see what they want to see and think what they want to think. Anybody can say anything they want, and it’s just he-said/she-said when it comes to who’s got the truth, whose holy book is right. “I think there’s reincarnation!” “I say there’s one God.” “I say there are lots of gods.” “I say all the gods are the same!” Anybody can say anything they darn well please. Who’s to ever know? “The gods brought rain.” “No they didn’t. That cloud did!” We never get to see Anybody, and God’s work in the world is so non-existent and totally subjective that it’s all a game of who’s cup is the marble under. Since nobody ever gets to see the marble, nobody ever knows, now, do they? That’s why skeptics say to religious folks, “You’re all a bunch of delusional idiots.” And religious folks say to skeptics, “Have fun in hell.” And this is productive conversation?
In the olden days, any conquering army would say, “Our God is going to give us victory,” and the city quaking in fear would say, “Our God will protect us,” and whoever won made sacrifices to their God. Well, that didn’t convince anybody, since every city, every empire, every army had their share of winning and losing. And as far as praying to the gods for crops, rain, babies, food, and what have you, it was all up for grabs as times of plenty and abundance alternated with each other. Nobody could ever tell anything about the nature of the gods, or whose religion was true or right. Whatever. Believe whatever you want.
That is, until Jesus showed up on the scene. What happened around this guy was not a matter of he-said she-said. Everybody knew stuff was happening. Nicodemus in John 3.1: “You’re doing stuff we can’t understand, but we know it’s not from earth.” They had to make up reasons for what was happening, because what was happening was objective and obvious, so they said, “You’re doing this by the power of the devil.” Some said it was from God. Wherever it was from, it was undeniable that it was happening. And Jesus made claims: “It’s from my Father. My Father and I are one.”
I mean, religion is all just whatever you want to believe, until this guy changes the game and says, “OK, just to prove to you that there is a God, and that it’s me, I’m going to come back from the dead.” Well, now we got game. Anybody who can do that has my attention. I’ve done a lot of funerals, but a guy rising out of his casket would have my instant attention. Now in this particular case Jesus predicted it, and said that it would be a proof of his teachings and his self-identity as God.
I almost threw out Christianity a few years back, but I didn’t because I can’t get around the resurrection. I’ve studied it and studied it, looking at historical references, the weight of the evidence in a legal setting, and the options of what all could have happened there. If a guy can come back from the dead, he gets my vote, and yes, that means the others don’t get elected. Oh, they have plenty of religious experiences, and quite valid ones at that. And the other religions—Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism—are packed full with truth. But they’re not true. The guy who resurrected wins, because now it’s not just, “Well I think…blah blah blah.” This guy CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD. That trumps what’s in your hand, no matter what it is. That’s the reason Christianity is true over the others, because the ante has been upped, and though the other players haven’t folded, the game’s over.
To me, now, since Jesus did what only God can do, that makes him divine, and therefore the things that he said and endorsed (the Old Testament) take on a significance that no other book has. Other books are filled with truth, but the Bible, because Jesus came out of his coffin, is on a different plane. It IS truth. That’s what I think, but in my mind there’s real evidence for it. It’s not just subjective opinion.
“What makes anyone think they can understand it, and if it's so subjective to the Spirit, how can we trust individual (or our own) interpretations?” In one sense the Bible is no different in that way from any other writing.
We take words to mean what they normally mean
We can interpret words from their context
We use typical rules of grammar
Etc etc, right?
But I have to add to that. In the other sense, since Jesus came back from dead and because of that gave more-than-credibility to anything he said or endorsed, the Bible says, and I believe rightly so, that because it’s a book about a love relationship, it can only be rightly interpreted by those in love with the writer (something you can understand from my previous illustration). And the Bible also says that because it’s a divine book, people who are spiritually separated from God are blind to its true meaning. The problem is that we’re back to he-said/she-said, and anyone can say, “Oh, this is what this text means,” and spew out their interpretation. Who’s right? Who’s “got it”? Great question. Like any other relationship (and it all just HAS to be taken on this fluid relational level), we have to learn whom we can trust, learn as we go, grow in wisdom, gather as much information as we can, seek the Spirit of God and his guidance, keep checking and double checking what we think with the rest of Scripture, with others we trust, with historical interpretations, and with common sense. Is it subjective? Unfortunately, yeah. But there’s no way around that. So is all interpretation of history (ask any historian). So is a ton of science (ask any scientist how often bias and presuppositions enter into the observation and evaluation phases, and affect the conclusions). So is politics (so many perspectives). And education—your present field. So art and music. Should religion be different? Even if golden tablets descended from the heavens, there are different ways to interpret the sentences. We all know that. Well, should God make sure his words are only interpreted one way—the right way? We’re back to our first discussion and God’s intervention, and how it messes up everything, and so he has to stay out of it in that way. But the Bible says that for those who truly seek Him, his Spirit will guide you in your soul into truth. But it’s still possible to mess up, because our humanity gets in the way. We have to keep reading, thinking, talking, evaluating, checking, and praying, and never get uppity about it. Sure, I’ve come to a point where I’m confident about things, but I’m always looking for more and better and deeper and wider. And I’m open to correction and change.
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