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[Newbie]

First, see the Wiki article on schizophrenia. Here's some highlights;

Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/) is a mental disorder often featuring abnormal social behavior and problems distinguishing what is real from what is not. Common symptoms include distress, hearing voices or noises that are not there, inattention, confused or unclear thinking, inactivity, and reduced emotional expression and social engagement.

The disorder is thought to mainly affect the ability to think, but it also usually contributes to chronic problems with behavior and emotion. People with schizophrenia are likely to have additional conditions, including major depression and anxiety disorders; the lifetime occurrence of substance use disorder is almost 50%. Social problems, such as long-term unemployment, poverty, and homelessness are common.

**Individuals with schizophrenia may experience hallucinations (most reported are hearing voices), delusions (often bizarre or persecutory in nature), and disorganized thinking and speech.

Today, if someone claimed to be hearing God's voice, we would likely point them to a doctor so they can get treatment. However, the authors of the Bible considered it perfectly normal for individuals to hear God's voice, see visions, etc. Hearing voices and seeing hallucinations are clear symptoms of schizophrenia. So when I read the Bible, I wonder how many of its prophets and apostles were actually schizophrenic rather than genuinely hearing from God.

Paul, out of all the Bible's authors, could easily have been schizophrenic. His conversion was the result of seeing a light and hearing Jesus' voice.

Is there any good reason why I shouldn't believe people like Paul and the other prophets and apostles in the Bible had undiagnosed mental health problems rather than that they were genuinely hearing from God?

[jimwalton]

I think there's a problem in your reasoning. You are presupposing that there is no god, and therefore to hear a voice from the void is a sign of madness. Secondly, the mental state and behavior of schizophrenics is not a "come and go" predicament, but a mental illness affecting all perceptions, decisions, and behaviors. As you study the Bible, you'll learn that the prophets were well-respected advisors to the king (e.g., Daniel), cogent in matters of life, poets (Moses), military geniuses, and givers of wise counsel. You plucked out of the definition "hears voices", but are ignoring distressed, unclear thinking, inattention, and chronic behavior, mental, and emotional problems. These diagnoses don't fit what we know of the biblical prophets and apostles, and if you think such, there would need to be some substantiation.

Paul, since you mentioned him, was nowhere near schizophrenic, despite some supernatural visions. (Shirley Maclaine has claimed supernatural visions, but she hasn't ben institutionalized. There is a movie out now about a boy who died and came back [Heaven is For Real]. Though I don't vouch for the movie [I haven't seen it], people don't automatically link visions and schizophrenia.) Paul was a systematic debater, with tremendously organized thoughts and an intense reasoning ability. He taps into history, philosophy, theology, and culture to make his points. There is nothing about what we know about him that aligns with schizophrenia.

I would guess that the only reason you would assume that Paul and other visionary prophets and apostles had undiagnosed mental health problems is if your presuppositions allow no other alternatives.

[Falcon]

John Nash made enormous contributions to mathematics. He was also nuttier than a fruit cake.

[jimwalton]

Well, I certainly agree with that, but we cannot infer from that that everyone who makes contributions to mathematics is wacko. Obviously some are—you have to look at the whole person. I would undeniably agree that some people who see visions are detached from reality, but we cannot infer from that that everyone who sees visions is schizophrenic. You have to look at the whole person. I would contend that knowledge of the biographies of the prophets and apostles give us grounds to consider them to be rational individuals, despite having seen visions, rather than justification to assume mental illness merely because they had visionary experiences.

[This Is My Login]

Did schizophrenia (or any mental illness for that matter) exist in ancient times? If yes, then it is possible that at least one of YHWH's prophets had some form of mental health issue. Or perhaps you believe that all the Bible's characters and authors had perfect mental health, in which case I should be worried about my own because I don't hear voices or see visions. I mean, if voices and visions are perfectly normal, then why aren't they more commonplace, and why do we now treat them as mental illnesses?

[jimwalton]

As I'm sure you're well aware, psychiatry didn't exist as a science or a practice back then. I'm sure there have always been "armchair psychiatrists" in every era, as we evaluate each other's motives and behaviors. Is it possible that some of the prophets or apostles were infirmed by mental health problems? We can only know that by "cold case psychiatry"—looking backward at the body of evidence, both their writings and any personal information we have, to determine their mental stability. To my knowledge, I'm not aware that ANY of the prophets or apostles (except Ezekiel) have been accused of schizophrenia by any knowing authorities in the field. The only accusation I've heard is that possibly Ezekiel was, but it's certainly not an agreed upon diagnosis, or even that anything was wrong with him mentally. Other than him, I've never heard any such thing until this post. From what is known about the prophets and apostles, they do not fall into the category of what we would call mentally ill individuals, and certainly not schizophrenic.

> Or perhaps you believe that all the Bible's characters and authors had perfect mental health

No, I don't assume that of all the Bible's characters, but I think there's appreciable evidence that the authors of the Bible are cogent, logical, reasonable, thinking people.

> if voices and visions are perfectly normal

I wouldn't say they're normal. I've never heard voices or seen visions, and most of the people I know have not, but it doesn't follow, then, that they are indicators of mental illness.

> why aren't they more commonplace

I continually hear and read stories of people who have had visions and heard voices, but they would be a trifling minority of human beings alive (and hence, not a normative human experience). Voices and visions have never been commonplace, to my knowledge, but that doesn't necessitate that they are barometers of mental illness.

> why do we now treat them as mental illnesses

I'm not aware that anytime anyone has a vision or hears a voice it is automatically diagnosed as mental illness. Diagnoses are more holistic than that, taking into consideration many factors of thought and behavior.

[Packs a Whallop]

There are various degrees of schizophrenia. The way genes work some people have highly functional schizophrenia where they can excel at ordinary life yet still be susceptible to audio and visual hallucinations.

[jimwalton]

Agreed, but it's not a logical or psychiatric necessity that everyone who is susceptible to audio and visual hallucinations is schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is a far broader and deeper personality disorder than the presence of visions or voices, and the experience of visions or voices is not an automatic psychosis signal. Responsible diagnosis would consider all of the mental faculties and attributes, behavior, relationships, and emotional responses.

[This Is My Login]

> You are presupposing that there is no god

I wasn't aware this idea was present in my post. All I'm asking is whether the Christian religion could simply be the result of believing the preachings/writings of schizophrenics. Perhaps I should have been clearer on this in my OP.

> As you study the Bible, you'll learn that the prophets were well-respected advisors to the king (e.g., Daniel), cogent in matters of life, poets (Moses), military geniuses, and givers of wise counsel.

Are you suggesting that the Bible's stories are factually and historically correct?

> Paul, since you mentioned him, was nowhere near schizophrenic

You can't prove this.

> Paul was a systematic debater, with tremendously organized thoughts and an intense reasoning ability. He taps into history, philosophy, theology, and culture to make his points. There is nothing about what we know about him that aligns with schizophrenia.

I'm not arguing whether Paul was intelligent or not. Many intelligent people have had mental illnesses, ranging from mild depression to full blown madness.

>There is nothing about what we know about him that aligns with schizophrenia.

There is. He claimed to hear voices and see visions. Today this would be considered a sign that the person was suffering some mental health issue, not that God was trying to communicate with them.

> I would guess that the only reason you would assume that Paul and other visionary prophets and apostles had undiagnosed mental health problems is if your presuppositions allow no other alternatives.

I'm just not convinced that the "revelations" of lonely men are a god's best method of communicating with the world.

[jimwalton]

> All I'm asking is whether the Christian religion could simply be the result of believing the preachings/writings of schizophrenics.

Based on the definition of schizophrenia, I would argue that it's not possible that's what the Christian religion is. Schizophrenia is characterized by delusions, loss of personality, confusion, agitation, social withdrawal, auditory hallucinations, detachment from reality, and bizarre behavior. It's chronic and debilitating. But you know all this. And, as I said, the writers of the Bible and the prophets don't fit this diagnosis.

> Are you suggesting that the Bible's stories are factually and historically correct?

Of course I am. The evidence is substantial.

> You can't prove [Paul was nowhere near schizophrenic]

He didn't display a loss of personality, confusion, agitation, social withdrawal, detachment from reality, or bizarre behavior. The only part of the diagnosis that he fits is that he saw visions and heard voices. Two out of many possible symptoms for the appropriate diagnosis doesn't make him psychotic.

I did some Internet searching, and came up with this:

Voice hearing is often seen as a prime symptom of psychosis (American Psychiatric Association 1994). Hearing voices (auditory hallucinations) is considered a first rank symptom of the specific psychosis of schizophrenia (Schneider, 1959). There are three main psychiatric categories of patients that hear voices; schizophrenia (around 50%); affective psychosis (around 25%) and dissociative disorders (around 80%) (Honig et al., 1998).

However, hearing voices in itself is not a symptom of an illness, but is apparent in 2 – 4 % of the population, some research gives higher estimates and even more people (about 8%) have so called “peculiar personal convictions”, that are sometimes called “delusions”, and do so without being ill. Many people who hear voices find them helpful or benevolent (Romme & Escher, 1993). In a large study of 15,000 people it was found that there was a prevalence of 2.3% who had heard voices frequently and this contrasts with the 1% prevalence of schizophrenia (Tien, 1991).

Here's the source: http://www.intervoiceonline.org/about-v ... tial-facts

> I'm just not convinced that the "revelations" of lonely men are a god's best method of communicating with the world.

Your assumption of "lonely" skews your statement. The apostles were were social and sociable. So also Daniel (from what we know of him), Samuel, Isaiah, and others.