> Besides, the world was dangerous in the days of A&E.
How so? Could you show me where in the text there is a danger mentioned in Genesis prior to the tree?
God explicitly tells Eve that her childbearing pains are a result of eating the fruit. Every woman today experiences childbearing pains. How is that not a result of Eve's eating the fruit?
> We have every reason to believe deception was already common. A&E would have been well-acquainted with it.
Could you also show me where they encounter deception prior to the tree?
>You are using a reductionist caricature of my argument to create a straw man. The Pentateuch tells us why we need to be separate from the ungodly, why we need to be holy, and why spiritual compromise is detrimental to life. We are told quite clearly.
It's not a straw man, maybe we just disagree on the premises. I don't think words like 'holy' and 'godly' are useful in terms of explanation. You swap holy/godly/ with 'good' and unholy/ungodly with 'bad' and it doesn't change anything, they are telling us what the one in charge expects, not why.
> I don't think so. But not every parent explains their rules. And even those that do can't possibly explain every rule they make. We learn, sometimes, just to respect their authority, knowing that they love us and have our good and safety in mind. And that's OK.
Looking back, I can't recall a single rule from my childhood that I didn't know it's meaning. I think it is a bad thing to just respect authority without understanding it, since without that understanding one has no way of knowing whether the one giving the orders has our best interests at heart or not. I think instilling blind obedience to authority is a good idea for your dog but a terrible one for your child.
Board index ‹ Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages ‹ Genesis
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Re: The Trees in the Garden of Eden
by jimwalton » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:34 pm
> Could you show me where in the text there is a danger mentioned in Genesis prior to the tree?
The concerns of the ancient world were functionality (rather than material origin), and creating order out of disorder (chaos). The world is portrayed as a place of disorder in Gn. 1.2. Material is already present in Gn. 1.2, but it is without order and proper functionality. The material earth and its landmasses and population were around, but it was not yet ordered to function the way God intended. Life on the planet, we might say, was rogue. This conclusion is confirmed in chapter 2.5, where in a later period of time, there is obvious life on the planet, but it is still inchoate. Knowing what we know from science, this is an apt description of the Paleolithic period (1.5 million - 20,000 years ago), maybe the Ice Age (15,000-11,600 years ago), and even the Neolithic period (11,600 - 6,500 years ago). We don't know the dates of A&E, but they were taken from this world of disorder (Gn. 2.15) and placed in the garden.
> God explicitly tells Eve that her childbearing pains are a result of eating the fruit.
Not so. Gen. 3.16 says her pains would be increased. It implies that Eve could or did experience some pain prior to the fall. The logical meaning of this phrase is that mental anguish would now accompany her biological pain, because now all her children would experience separation from God. She would have sorrow in conception, not just physical pain. The Hebrew word is "its-a-bon": "hardship, pain, distress, sorrow, toil, labor, agony, worry, nuisance, anxiety."
> Could you also show me where they encounter deception prior to the tree?
It's not recorded in the Bible, but it's a reasonable inference. If there was life on the planet, as science tells us, and if Adam and Eve were part of that life environment, which is necessary, and if death was already in the system (as is necessary also, both scientifically and biblically), then deception was part of their environment. Animals deceive with the instinctive habits, as we can infer also did hominids trying to survive. The garden of eden scene is not their first foray into decision-making and morality, but their first accountability for it.
> Looking back, I can't recall a single rule from my childhood that I didn't know it's meaning.
Then you had a particularly (also unusually) diligent and purposeful parent.
> I think it is a bad thing to just respect authority without understanding it
Oh, I didn't say this. But after you learn that your mother is diligent and responsible, and that she loves you and has your best interests in mind, you don't necessarily need an explanation every time. You know her, respect her, and willingly submit to her authority (in an ideal world). I'm not talking about blind obedience, but obedience learned from evidence and experience.
The concerns of the ancient world were functionality (rather than material origin), and creating order out of disorder (chaos). The world is portrayed as a place of disorder in Gn. 1.2. Material is already present in Gn. 1.2, but it is without order and proper functionality. The material earth and its landmasses and population were around, but it was not yet ordered to function the way God intended. Life on the planet, we might say, was rogue. This conclusion is confirmed in chapter 2.5, where in a later period of time, there is obvious life on the planet, but it is still inchoate. Knowing what we know from science, this is an apt description of the Paleolithic period (1.5 million - 20,000 years ago), maybe the Ice Age (15,000-11,600 years ago), and even the Neolithic period (11,600 - 6,500 years ago). We don't know the dates of A&E, but they were taken from this world of disorder (Gn. 2.15) and placed in the garden.
> God explicitly tells Eve that her childbearing pains are a result of eating the fruit.
Not so. Gen. 3.16 says her pains would be increased. It implies that Eve could or did experience some pain prior to the fall. The logical meaning of this phrase is that mental anguish would now accompany her biological pain, because now all her children would experience separation from God. She would have sorrow in conception, not just physical pain. The Hebrew word is "its-a-bon": "hardship, pain, distress, sorrow, toil, labor, agony, worry, nuisance, anxiety."
> Could you also show me where they encounter deception prior to the tree?
It's not recorded in the Bible, but it's a reasonable inference. If there was life on the planet, as science tells us, and if Adam and Eve were part of that life environment, which is necessary, and if death was already in the system (as is necessary also, both scientifically and biblically), then deception was part of their environment. Animals deceive with the instinctive habits, as we can infer also did hominids trying to survive. The garden of eden scene is not their first foray into decision-making and morality, but their first accountability for it.
> Looking back, I can't recall a single rule from my childhood that I didn't know it's meaning.
Then you had a particularly (also unusually) diligent and purposeful parent.
> I think it is a bad thing to just respect authority without understanding it
Oh, I didn't say this. But after you learn that your mother is diligent and responsible, and that she loves you and has your best interests in mind, you don't necessarily need an explanation every time. You know her, respect her, and willingly submit to her authority (in an ideal world). I'm not talking about blind obedience, but obedience learned from evidence and experience.
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Re: The Trees in the Garden of Eden
by Kamahama » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:18 pm
God creates Adam in Gn 2.7 and puts him in the garden in Gn 2.8. It's literally the next line. It seems quite a stretch for me insert a long period in there where Adam lives in the world of disorder and toils and works. Moreover, Eve is not created until Gn 2.22, after Adam is in the garden.
> Not so. Gen. 3.16 says her pains would be increased.
Good point. So the excruciating pain women have now is the default, then?
> The logical meaning of this phrase is that mental anguish would now accompany her biological pain, because now all her children would experience separation from God.
That's one interpretation, I don't think it's the only logical one. Even if that's so...every child is now born separated from God and that implies if she hadn't eaten the fruit then her children (and their children, etc) would not have been born separated. So it still seems like we are pretty directly paying for A&E's sins.
> It's not recorded in the Bible, but it's a reasonable inference.
I don't think witnessing the sort of deception practiced by animals in any way prepares you for deception by way of speech - especially not from an intelligent spirit.
> after you learn that your mother is diligent and responsible, and that she loves you and has your best interests in mind, you don't necessarily need an explanation every time.
If it doesn't make sense to me then sure I do. Not because I doubt her, but because I want to know why things are the way they are. I'm not disrespecting her by asking for an explanation and she does not take offense to it.
> I'm not talking about blind obedience, but obedience learned from evidence and experience.
What makes obedience blind or not is whether you understand the purpose of the instruction, not whether obeying has worked out well for you in the past. If someone gives you good instructions a thousand times and they are all good, so you don't question the next one, then you are still blindly obeying that last instruction.
> Not so. Gen. 3.16 says her pains would be increased.
Good point. So the excruciating pain women have now is the default, then?
> The logical meaning of this phrase is that mental anguish would now accompany her biological pain, because now all her children would experience separation from God.
That's one interpretation, I don't think it's the only logical one. Even if that's so...every child is now born separated from God and that implies if she hadn't eaten the fruit then her children (and their children, etc) would not have been born separated. So it still seems like we are pretty directly paying for A&E's sins.
> It's not recorded in the Bible, but it's a reasonable inference.
I don't think witnessing the sort of deception practiced by animals in any way prepares you for deception by way of speech - especially not from an intelligent spirit.
> after you learn that your mother is diligent and responsible, and that she loves you and has your best interests in mind, you don't necessarily need an explanation every time.
If it doesn't make sense to me then sure I do. Not because I doubt her, but because I want to know why things are the way they are. I'm not disrespecting her by asking for an explanation and she does not take offense to it.
> I'm not talking about blind obedience, but obedience learned from evidence and experience.
What makes obedience blind or not is whether you understand the purpose of the instruction, not whether obeying has worked out well for you in the past. If someone gives you good instructions a thousand times and they are all good, so you don't question the next one, then you are still blindly obeying that last instruction.
- Kamahama
Re: The Trees in the Garden of Eden
by jimwalton » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:28 pm
> God creates Adam in Gn 2.7 and puts him in the garden in Gn 2.8. It's literally the next line. It seems quite a stretch for me insert a long period in there where Adam lives in the world of disorder and toils and works.
There's no doubt, no matter what one's interpretation of Genesis 1-2 are, that some telescoping is included in the text. There's no way, in anybody's mind, that it's a minute-by-minute account with nothing else in between. The debate is often how much time, but never that there isn't any time. The author is telling us the pertinent information regardless of any time constraints.
> So the excruciating pain women have now is the default, then?
Yes.
> That's one interpretation, I don't think it's the only logical one.
One scholar after another says this is right interpretation. And I gave you the Hebrew showing the strict definition, but besides that, the root is most often used to target mental or psychological anguish instead of physical pain, though physical pain may accompany or be the root cause of the anguish.
> Even if that's so...every child is now born separated from God and that implies if she hadn't eaten the fruit then her children (and their children, etc) would not have been born separated. So it still seems like we are pretty directly paying for A&E's sins.
Think of it this way. Say your parents were Americans, but they don't like the current administration and so they move to, say, France. They renounce their American citizenship, and so the children born to them are French, not American. Is the child to blame that it's French? No. But nor is that a permanent condition. At any time that person, or their children or grandchildren, has a choice to move back to America and become an American citizen. So yes, you are separated from God because of A&E's decision, but you only STAY separated by your own decision. You are welcome to come to God and be part of his family any time you wish. His door is always open. So you are not paying for their sins, you pay for your own. You can be forgiven at any moment for the asking.
> I don't think witnessing the sort of deception practiced by animals in any way prepares you for deception by way of speech - especially not from an intelligent spirit.
I agree that it's not the same, but if there's deception in the world, then it's in the world, and varies by degrees and intent from species to species. It's in the world nonetheless.
> the purpose of the instruction
We have covered this ground already, and you don't accept my explanation, which is your prerogative.
There's no doubt, no matter what one's interpretation of Genesis 1-2 are, that some telescoping is included in the text. There's no way, in anybody's mind, that it's a minute-by-minute account with nothing else in between. The debate is often how much time, but never that there isn't any time. The author is telling us the pertinent information regardless of any time constraints.
> So the excruciating pain women have now is the default, then?
Yes.
> That's one interpretation, I don't think it's the only logical one.
One scholar after another says this is right interpretation. And I gave you the Hebrew showing the strict definition, but besides that, the root is most often used to target mental or psychological anguish instead of physical pain, though physical pain may accompany or be the root cause of the anguish.
> Even if that's so...every child is now born separated from God and that implies if she hadn't eaten the fruit then her children (and their children, etc) would not have been born separated. So it still seems like we are pretty directly paying for A&E's sins.
Think of it this way. Say your parents were Americans, but they don't like the current administration and so they move to, say, France. They renounce their American citizenship, and so the children born to them are French, not American. Is the child to blame that it's French? No. But nor is that a permanent condition. At any time that person, or their children or grandchildren, has a choice to move back to America and become an American citizen. So yes, you are separated from God because of A&E's decision, but you only STAY separated by your own decision. You are welcome to come to God and be part of his family any time you wish. His door is always open. So you are not paying for their sins, you pay for your own. You can be forgiven at any moment for the asking.
> I don't think witnessing the sort of deception practiced by animals in any way prepares you for deception by way of speech - especially not from an intelligent spirit.
I agree that it's not the same, but if there's deception in the world, then it's in the world, and varies by degrees and intent from species to species. It's in the world nonetheless.
> the purpose of the instruction
We have covered this ground already, and you don't accept my explanation, which is your prerogative.
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