Board index ‹ Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages ‹ Genesis

[Diogenes]

> You weren't asking for proof of the biblical narrative behind those names. Instead, your question was "what evidence do you have that the Israelite monarchy ever existed?" All of my bullet points (and there are many more) certainly prove the existence of the Israelite monarchy. That was the question and discussion at hand.

But they do nothing to contradict the hypothesis that the patriarchy behind those names were central Asian immigrants who learned a new language. In fact, that paper you linked clearly stated that a common Ashkenazi Jewish Y chromosomal type [R1a1] is very common among Russians, Ukrainians, as well as among certain Central Asian groups. Yes, it also shows clear matrilineal ties to the Middle East; I would never suggest that the Philistines and Sherdani didn’t take their brides from among the locals.

There’s a chart in your link that shows the Jewish diaspora are closely related to Sardinians. The Sherden are thought to refer to Sardinia by most scholars.

> Well, then, that shows that you are biased against the biblical account and against Christianity. A better position, in my opinion, would be on the basis of evidence, not of prejudicial bias. Bias is just going to give you a skewed position, usually ignoring, or even worse, distorting evidence that disagrees with your position.

My bias is against the supernatural. I don’t believe in ghosts or gods or magic or divinity. That’s a bias I can live with.

>>>> what proof for you have that these writings weren’t referring to Jezreel?
>>> Because of the terminology and the context of those inscriptions.
>> Like what? What clear references to Jezreel do you have?
> 1 Sam. 1.29: Israel camped by the spring in Jezreel
> 2 Sam. 2.9: He made him king over Gilead, Ashuri and Jezreel, and also over Ephraim, Benjamin and all Israel.
> Hosea 1.4-5: I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. In that day I will break Israel’s bow in the Valley of Jezreel.

No, not from the Bible, you dink! Historical artifacts like the merneptah stele.

> You mean extra biblical references? Archaeologists have found the site of Jezreel the city (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezreel_(city))

Okay, but there’s nothing here to suggest that these ruins weren’t ruled by Aryan occupation.

> I disagree, following the evidence.

You just tried to quote the Bible as evidence. I don’t think you know what real evidence looks like.

> In stark contrast, Sparta had two kings ruling in partnership, sharing duties (division of power and balance of power). This was a totally different system from the Sadducees and Pharisees.

I may have overreached with that comparison, but that still doesn’t explain away the other similarities.

> There is no justifiable cause to see the angels as twins, brothers, or anything in common with the twin horse gods. Any surmised connection is spurious.

I disagree. There is every reason compare the two angels to shape shifting twin gods. For one, they don’t try to kill each other. Every middle eastern myth about brothers involves one of them dying by the other’s hand. Two, they punish poor hosts, just like Odin used to do. He would ride out with one of his brothers (usually Loki) and test people. It was part of PIE culture.

> Geologists Graham Harris and Anthony Beardow believe that the bitumen common in the area could have ignited during an earthquake and the resulting fire would have helped to destroy the city. There are historical accounts of similar occurrences. (In 37 BC, the town of Helice in Greece was reportedly lost through liquefaction, as were thousands of miles of area in China in 1921. More recently, a section of Valdez, Alaska, liquefied in the 1950s.)

> Steve Collins (Biblical Archaeology Review, 2013) says, "We continue to find significant evidence that some kind of 'airburst' (of cosmic origin) occurred over the kikkar sometime between 1750-1650 BC. The magnitude of the event was somewhere between the Tunguska, Siberia airburst of 1908 and the one in 2013 that exploded over southern Russia. All of the phenomenological language of destruction preserved in Gn. 19 is consistent with this kind of cosmic impact. The evidence on the ground also supports such a cataclysmic, targeted destruction.

A wise friend of mine once said, “We must be careful not to form an opinion without evidence. Speculation comes from nowhere and takes us nowhere. It's too easy to be skewed by our bias. Instead, we follow the evidence where it leads.” You should listen to them.

[jimwalton]

> But they do nothing to contradict the hypothesis that the patriarchy behind those names were central Asian immigrants who learned a new language.

Now there's some real confusion. You claimed there was no historicity to the Israelite monarchy. I proved to you there was. Then you moved the goalposts and said my list didn't prove the biblical narrative behind those kings. I never claimed it did. Now you've moved the goalposts again, saying that my archaeological evidence of the Israelite monarchy doesn't prove their genetic origin. I never claimed it did.

> In fact, that paper you linked clearly stated that a common Ashkenazi Jewish Y chromosomal type [R1a1] is very common among Russians, Ukrainians, as well as among certain Central Asian groups.

Correct, but the Ashkenazy Jewish chromosomal type came AFTER the period of the Israelite monarchy. The time line matters. But when you trace the genetics beyond them, you get to a Middle Eastern origin of the Israelite people, not a European one.

> My bias is against the supernatural.

I would hope you would strive for NO bias.

> I don’t believe in ghosts or gods or magic or divinity.

I do believe in God and divinity. I follow the evidence where it leads without excluding certain paths a priori on the basis of biased presuppositions.

> No, not from the Bible, you dink! Historical artifacts like the merneptah stele.

No reason to start name-calling. Let's have a respectful discussion, please.

> Okay, but there’s nothing here to suggest that these ruins weren’t ruled by Aryan occupation.

Nor is there any evidence to suggest they were ruled by Aryan occupation. You're free to create your own opinion, but you are not free to create your own facts.

The archaeologists have determined that the city was occupied by what we call Israelites (which genetics have shown originated in the Middle East). The pottery was Israelite pottery. The evidence at hand leads us to Israelite occupants.

> I don’t think you know what real evidence looks like

I would have hoped that we were beyond the point where you could legitimately assume I wasn't as stupid as a rock and that I don't even know what real evidence is. If you want to continue having a civilized discussion, let's agree to keep the insults out of it.

> but that still doesn’t explain away the other similarities.

I haven't seen other similarities. The two situations are disparate with little to zero overlap.

> For one, they don’t try to kill each other.

I haven't tried to kill any of my brothers, either, but that doesn't make us like the PIE gods. I wouldn't expect heavenly angels to be hostile to each other.

> Every middle eastern myth about brothers involves one of them dying by the other’s hand.

Even if you want to count the Bible as myth (which I don't), Jacob and Esau don't kill each other. Joseph and his brothers don't kill each other. Isaac and Ishmael don't kill each other.

Two Sumerian gods, Enki and Enlil, were half-brothers. I'm not aware they killed each other.

> Two, they punish poor hosts, just like Odin used to do.

The angels in Sodom are there to SAVE their hosts, to rescue them.

> Instead, we follow the evidence where it leads.” You should listen to them.

I do. That's why I quoted the sources that I did.

• The bitumen in the region of the Dead Sea has been ignited in several historical accounts: Helice, and portions of China, as well as Valdez, AK.
• "We continue to find significant evidence..."

The persistent issue here is that there is no evidence for your case. Nothing ties together the horse gods and the angels in Sodom. There is no evidence that the Philistines wrote the OT. There is no genetic evidence for the origin of Israelites in Europe. Despite all of our interactions, the evidence to support your claims is lacking.