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[Grimace]

The issue is you are still dealing with god creating humans, and the first ones he made f***ing up so badly that all humans should be punished forever because of it.

That means god is a really shitty creator.

[jimwalton]

Well, thanks for bringing that up, but it shows how badly you misunderstand the text and the situation. So I'm glad you wrote. Sure God created humans, but a lot of the point is this: humans can't earn their way into God's favor. Because we're not divine, we make mistakes, and there are consequences for those mistakes. What makes God a worthy creator is that he made a way for us to get past the issue that we're not divine. He made a way to have a relationship with Him despite that we make mistakes. He reached out to us in our sin since we were incapable of reaching out to him (Rom. 3.9-28).

God, by definition, is uncreated. Therefore humans, because we're created, are not God. Therefore humans are subject to mistakes, because we're not God. Not perfect and never have been. God, knowing that reality, gave us a way to have a relationship with him anyway. We blew that, too, so God made a different way of having a relationship with Him that depended on Him, not us. To me, that's pretty noble, not lousy, as you claim.

God made us as humans to be fantastic, almost miraculous organisms of talent, ability, reasoning, work—the whole shot. We're not all f'ed up messes, but we're not God either. So God bridged the gap. That's why we bond with Him in love and worship Him. He wanted us, and so made a way.

[Grimace]

> Sure God created humans, but a lot of the point is this: humans can't earn their way into God's favor.

My kid's don't have to earn their way into my favour.

> Because we're not divine, we make mistakes, and there are consequences for those mistakes.

God made us in a way that we make mistakes, and now he is punishing us for the way he created us?

> What makes God a worthy creator is that he made a way for us to get past the issue that we're not divine.

We made us not divine, then gave us a way to get past that issue. How is that worthy? Also, that way is a way I can't be, so I am punished?

> He made a way to have a relationship with Him despite that we make mistakes.

I'm sorry, but I can't have a relationship with something I'm not convinced exists. Also, mistakes by something my ancestor did or a mistake because of the way we were created?

> He reached out to us in our sin since we were incapable of reaching out to him (Rom. 3.9-28).

Or he could just forgive us?

> God, by definition, is uncreated. Therefore humans, because we're created, are not God.

Ok.

> Therefore humans are subject to mistakes, because we're not God. Not perfect and never have been.

So God is incapable of making humans in a way that we don't make mistakes? Or atleast in a way that those mistakes don't cause us punishment?

>God, knowing that reality, gave us a way to have a relationship with him anyway. We blew that, too, so God made a different way of having a relationship with Him that depended on Him, not us. To me, that's pretty noble, not lousy, as you claim.

Again, I can't have a relationship with something I am not convinced exists. That's pretty lousy, not noble in my book.
God made us as humans to be fantastic, almost miraculous organisms of talent, ability, reasoning, work—the whole shot. We're not all f'ed up messes, but we're not God either. So God bridged the gap. That's why we bond with Him in love and worship Him. He wanted us, and so made a way.

His noble way is to punish anyone who doesn't believe in him (and made belief not a choice)?

[jimwalton]

> My kid's don't have to earn their way into my favour.

I don't mean we have to earn God's love. Love isn't like that, and that was my point. If we have to earn someone's love, it isn't really love coming back at us. God created us, and he loves us, so there's no way to "earn his favor." "Oh, if I'm just good enough God will..." Nope, that's a totally misguided thought, as you have identified.

> God made us in a way that we make mistakes, and now he is punishing us for the way he created us?

Suppose, for the sake of this theological discussion, we define "perfect" as necessarily being aligned with "uncreated." Now, I want you to create something perfect. You see, it's impossible, because only an uncreated thing can be perfect. You're blaming God for not being able to something that's logically impossible. You might as well castigate him for not creating a round square or a married bachelor.

> We made us not divine

Wrong. We never were divine. We were always human.

> I'm sorry, but I can't have a relationship with something I'm not convinced exists.

That's a different question and a different discussion altogether. This focus of this conversation is Genesis 3.22, not what was in existence before Genesis 1.1.

> Or he could just forgive us?

It's a legal issue. The Bible portrays sin and forgiveness in legal terms, much like an imbalance or a disequilibrium that has to be rectified. It's not just a matter of sweeping it under the rug and pretending it never happened.

> His noble way is to punish anyone who doesn't believe in him (and made belief not a choice)?

Wrong again. Those who choose not to believe, love, and follow bring punishment on themselves. Suppose there is a family who lives in the protection of their own home, and outside of the home is an invading army (I know, maybe a weak analogy, but just trying off the top of the head). So the 15-year-old boy says, "I'm sick of this family. I'm going out there." "No," the dad pleads. "It's dangerous out there. There are people who want to kill you. There are diseases and injuries. Stay here where you are safe and loved." But out the door goes the kid. When he gets sick and injured, does he have a right to accuse his dad of punishing him for leaving the home? I say no. He made his choice. He could have stayed, or at any time before injury or illness he could have returned. He made CONTINUAL choices. The Father is not to blame for the free will choices of the kid.

Adam & Eve made their choices. They had a safe place with a loving Father. He had promised them life, and provided for them. When they rebelled against him, essentially claiming they were going to make their own way in the world, and bringing misery on themselves, don't blame God. It's the natural consequence of their choice, and they were warned.

But even then we could add this: At any time the kid could always come back. The father would forgive him and take him in. All he has to do is COME BACK. Don't blame the father if the kid doesn't do that.

[Grimace]

> I don't mean we have to earn God's love. Love isn't like that, and that was my point. If we have to earn someone's love, it isn't really love coming back at us. God created us, and he loves us, so there's no way to "earn his favor." "Oh, if I'm just good enough God will..." Nope, that's a totally misguided thought, as you have identified.

God loves me, but he wants to punish me, because I don't believe him, because of the way I am made? That doesn't sound like love.

>Suppose, for the sake of this theological discussion, we define "perfect" as necessarily being aligned with "uncreated." Now, I want you to create something perfect. You see, it's impossible, because only an uncreated thing can be perfect. You're blaming God for not being able to something that's logically impossible. You might as well castigate him for not creating a round square or a married bachelor.

Notice I didn't say perfect. What I said was being able to make mistakes that don't cause eternal torture.

> Wrong. We never were divine. We were always human.

You quote me saying "we made us not divine"

> That's a different question and a different discussion altogether. This focus of this conversation is Genesis 3.22, not what was in existence before Genesis 1.1.

It's completely relevant. I don't believe, so how can I have that relationship I need to avoid torture?

> It's a legal issue. The Bible portrays sin and forgiveness in legal terms, much like an imbalance or a disequilibrium that has to be rectified. It's not just a matter of sweeping it under the rug and pretending it never happened.

God is the one who wrote the laws. So legal issues mean nothing.

> Wrong again. Those who choose not to believe, love, and follow bring punishment on themselves.

Belief is not a choice. Sorry. Also I don't chose hell, so that is god making that decision.

> Suppose there is a family who lives in the protection of their own home, and outside of the home is an invading army (I know, maybe a weak analogy, but just trying off the top of the head). So the 15-year-old boy says, "I'm sick of this family. I'm going out there." "No," the dad pleads. "It's dangerous out there. There are people who want to kill you. There are diseases and injuries. Stay here where you are safe and loved." But out the door goes the kid. When he gets sick and injured, does he have a right to accuse his dad of punishing him for leaving the home? I say no. He made his choice. He could have stayed, or at any time before injury or illness he could have returned. He made CONTINUAL choices. The Father is not to blame for the free will choices of the kid.

Your analogy needs the fact that the father sent the army himself.

> Adam & Eve made their choices. They had a safe place with a loving Father. He had promised them life, and provided for them. When they rebelled against him, essentially claiming they were going to make their own way in the world, and bringing misery on themselves, don't blame God. It's the natural consequence of their choice, and they were warned.

Then why I am punished?

[jimwalton]

> God loves me, but he wants to punish me, because I don't believe him, because of the way I am made? That doesn't sound like love.

That's because you still have it wrong. You chose to leave the place of safety and love and to enter the environment of punishment. You chose it, and your still choose it because at ANY time you can return to the house.

Suppose I'm a doctor, and you are dying. I offer you the only remedy that can keep you alive, and you refuse. The natural consequence of your decision is death. Don't blame me for punishing you. You chose it by not choosing life. Death is the consequence for refusing life. But God loves you and says, "Come back. I will take you back. All can be forgiven. Just come back to the family."

> Notice I didn't say perfect. What I said was being able to make mistakes that don't cause eternal torture.

You're right, I chose the word "perfect" because you seem to think God could have created you as uncreated. But since we are all created (by necessity—there's no other alternative here), we are susceptible. You are the one who chose an eternity apart from God. Don't blame him. He wants you in relationship with him. You're the one who won't come back.

> You quote me saying "we made us not divine"

Yeah, that's what you wrote. Is that not what you meant? But even if you meant "HE made us not divine," my point is the same. Divinity, in the Bible, means uncreated. You can't be created and be divine.

> It's completely relevant. I don't believe, so how can I have that relationship I need to avoid torture?

Of course it's relevant. I never said it wasn't. It's just a completely different conversation.

> God is the one who wrote the laws. So legal issues mean nothing.

Wrong again. The laws are inherent in the universe, a necessary part of life. You can't have reason without free will. You can't have nature without cause and effect. You can't have morality without choice. You act as if God arbitrarily added this stuff, and it's just not so.

> Belief is not a choice. Sorry.

Your opinion that I strongly disagree with. We aren't robots.

> Also I don't chose hell, so that is god making that decision.

If you choose against God, who is life, the only alternative is death. If you choose against God, who is love, the only alternative is self. If you choose against God, who is characterized by joy, the only alternative is misery. If you choose not to be aligned with God, you choose to separate from him, and that's what hell is: separation from God and all the necessary aspects of that. Don't blame God for your decisions.

> Your analogy needs the fact that the father sent the army himself.

Wrong again. I don't know where you got your distorted view of Christianity, but you need to see how distorted it is. Satan made a choice to rebel against God. God didn't created that rebellion. Sin entered the world by the choice of Adam; God didn't create that disobedience. The "army" was sent by the ungodly choices that were made by other. God, the father, didn't send the army himself.

> Then why I am punished?

Because you're making the same choices. You can come back to God today, even right now, but if you don't, you are making the same choice of defiance, disobedience, and rebellion. You are not condemned for Adam's sin, but for your own.

Let me try another analogy. Let's say your great grandparents lived in Ireland, but decided to emigrate to the U.S. They became US citizens, and now, through no choice of your own you are American, not Irish. And all your children will be American, and all of theirs. But at any time, any of you can move back to Ireland and once again be citizens of Ireland. You may not be an American by choice in one sense (it was your greats that made that decision), but every day you are an American by your own choice (because you can return at any time).

Because of Adam and Eve, we lost our citizenship, so to speak. It wasn't your fault. But at any time you are invited to return to the Fatherland and re-institute your citizenship. The choice is yours. If you never turn back to the Father, that's your choice.

So if you persist in your rebellion against God, refusing to return to Him, that's why you are punished. You are still guilty of treason by your own doing.

[Grimace]

> That's because you still have it wrong. You chose to leave the place of safety and love and to enter the environment of punishment. You chose it, and your still choose it because at ANY time you can return to the house.

I'm not going to go past this first point. Belief is not a choice, do you agree?

Since it's not a choice, then how could I just chose to believe?

Also, since I don't believe, that doesn't mean I chose hell. I chose not to go to hell. If I go to hell I am not putting myself there.

[jimwalton]

"Belief" has different possible definitions, and so certain kinds of belief are chosen (whether to believe Donald Trump is an idiot, whether to believe that the basic driving force of the universe is gravity or electromagnetic, whether to believe a verdict was just, etc.), while others are not. In this particular case, what you choose to believe about God and spirituality are definitely choices. You can weigh the evidences, tap your conscience, consider the arguments, and choose what you are going to believe.

I have done the same, and find the arguments and evidences for God to be convincing beyond a reasonable doubt. You have examined some of the same data and concluded exactly the opposite. We both made our choices, and will both live out the consequences of those beliefs. If you end up in hell, you put yourself there. If I end up in hell (because the Muslims are right, after all), that was my choice also.

[Grimace]

> "Belief" has different possible definitions

They do? I have never heard that before. Let's see what the old dictionary says:

be·lief bəˈlēf/ noun noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

Ok, two definitions yes.

> and so certain kinds of belief are chosen ... while others are not.

Pardon, how are those chosen or not? You are convinced of your belief or you are not.

If belief is a choice, that means you could change it right now. This second. That is what being a choice means.

> In this particular case, what you choose to believe about God and spirituality are definitely choices. You can weigh the evidences, tap your conscience, consider the arguments, and choose what you are going to believe.

No, you ado all that and you are convinced or not. What you are convinced of is what you believe. Right now could you believe there is no god?

> I have done the same, and find the arguments and evidences for God to be convincing beyond a reasonable doubt. You have examined some of the same data and concluded exactly the opposite.

Exactly. You were convinced. You didn't say, ok I am convinced now yes or no to god. Neither did I.

> We both made our choices, and will both live out the consequences of those beliefs.

We were both convinced of something, having consequences to that is odd.

> If you end up in hell, you put yourself there.

No. I say right now if hell exists, I do not want to go there. If I go there, I am being forced.

> If I end up in hell (because the Muslims are right, after all), that was my choice also.

No it wasn't. Belief is not a choice. Your destination is. You would not chose the muslim hell either.

[jimwalton]

Well, it seems pretty solid that we won't come to agreement here. You are choosing not to believe anything I wrote.