Board index ‹ Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages ‹ Mark

[Kata Plasma]

> What you cannot responsibly ignore is the OTHER side, which I have given you as well.

I'm not trying to ignore anything. What are some of the texts where Jesus' authority and power is innate rather than given him by the father. My point with those other verses is that it's one or the other. Either God ave Jesus authority or Jesus has authority in himself. Since we both cannot escape the conclusion that God gave Jesus authority, that authority must not rest innately in Jesus.

> "Faith" is used in a couple of different ways in the Bible.

That's great. What do you want to straighten up?

Is it the trust kind of faith that you think Jesus didn't have? So your view is that when Jesus prayed "all things are possible for you" he wasn't actually trusting in God? He was just stating a fact because he is omniscient? But you also claim faith is "knowing."

> The text doesn't say Jesus believed it was there and acted accordingly. You are imposing this illegitimately on the text. It isn't there. Jesus did not act by faith.

Listen, I agree it's not explicitly there. I'm not seeing words in my mind that don't exist. I'm applying what the author of Hebrews has been talking about with all the heroes of the Old Testament to Jesus. Like them, he had something unseen (the joy set before him) for which he endured suffering.

Jesus offered prayers [for salvation] to the one who could save his life and those prayers were heard (Hebrews 5:7-10). Jesus was vindicated by resurrection. If anyone else "offered prayers to the one who could save him from death" you'd know what was going on. It's faith, trust, what have you.

The point the author of Hebrews is trying to make is that Jesus is the ultimate example of faith

> This is absolutely and provably untrue.

You've somehow concluded that since Jesus is God he can therefore not have faith. Virtually no Trinitarians believe that. One can have faith in Jesus and Jesus can have faith in God simultaneously.

[jimwalton]

> My point with those other verses is that it's one or the other. Either God ave Jesus authority or Jesus has authority in himself.

Jesus says He works in perfect unity with the Father. There's no reason or basis to separate the two into distinct and separate working entities. The text leads us to believe they work as one, not as two. If you know anything about car engines, this is like claiming that camshaft does its work in a different sense than the pistons do. Sure, they are separate pieces, but they work in perfectly integrated harmony; it's the *only* way they work. You can't separate one from the other.

>> Faith
> That's great. What do you want to straighten up?

The first definition of faith is loyalty to God. Jesus certainly had that. The second is that Jesus would have to make an assumption of truth based on the evidence. Jesus didn't need that because He was omniscient. The third is a system beliefs. Jesus didn't need that; He was the *object* of belief.

> Is it the trust kind of faith that you think Jesus didn't have? So your view is that when Jesus prayed "all things are possible for you" he wasn't actually trusting in God?

Correct. He wasn't trusting in God. He was affirming truth. If I say to you, "You're a competent writer," it's not a statement of trust, but an affirmation of what is obvious. He’s not trusting God (as if He doesn’t know what’s completely going on), He is worshipping.

> I'm applying what the author of Hebrews has been talking about with all the heroes of the Old Testament to Jesus.

The point of Hebrews is that Jesus is NOT just one in a sequence or "one like others." Hebrews is explicit that Jesus is in a category by Himself.

> Jesus offered prayers [for salvation] to the one who could save his life and those prayers were heard (Hebrews 5:7-10). Jesus was vindicated by resurrection.

Correct.

> It's faith, trust, what have you.

It's Jesus surrendering His will to the Father. It's an expression of obedience, not faith.

> You've somehow concluded that since Jesus is God he can therefore not have faith.

Correct. That's exactly what I've concluded from the textual evidence.

> Virtually no Trinitarians believe that.

I don't believe this for a minute.