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Jesus, the Servant

Mark 13:32 - Jesus is not omniscient and not god

Postby Luan » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:38 pm

Mark 13:32 implies that God knows something Jesus doesn't, which is contradictory.

New International Version

…30 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. 32 But as for that day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.…


If the Trinity is true, then God the Father and God the Son are equally one god. God is also said to be omniscient. But there's a logically contradiction here:

(1) Father = God, and Son = God
(2) God = Omniscient
(3) Father ≠ Son
(3b) Father = Omniscient, and Son ≠ Omniscient
(4) Because of (1), (3b) can be restated as God = Omniscient, and God ≠ Omniscient

This would imply that somehow God is simultaneously omniscient and not omniscient, which is a violation of the law of non-contradiction, and we all know that God cannot do the logically impossible; therefore God cannot make A be simultaneously A and Not A. The verse above is tantamount to saying that God is simultaneously O and Not O. This is highly problematic.

One could say that this falls under the concept of being a mystery of faith, but it would still imply that the laws of thought are not necessarily true because there exists an actual thing that contradicts it. And if the laws of thought aren't necessarily true, then it would become entirely possible that God can, in fact, do what is logically impossible.

Perhaps one could make the counterargument that Jesus knows everything God knows through his divine nature but not through his human nature, but that would still lead to a dilemma; the hypostatic union implies that Jesus has two natures in one being, but that would still lead to the conclusion that one being can simultaneously Know X and Not Know X, which still violates the law of non-contradiction. One could either accept that God can do the logically impossible, or Jesus does not have only one being, which I am pretty sure is a conclusion in heretical territory.

To conclude, God the Father's knowledge of something Jesus does not, is quite arguably infringing on a law of logic.
Luan
 

Re: Mark 13:32 - Jesus is not omniscient and not god

Postby jimwalton » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:52 pm

Well, it's obvious that the writers of the Gospels don't write to white wash Jesus into a deity that he never claimed to be! A verse like this shows us how truthful, accurate, and writing with integrity the Gospel writers aimed to be. In addition, as Zacharias says, "If Jesus were a self-aggrandizing charlatan, why would he have answered the question that way? He wouldn’t have. He would have answered it by saying, 'I know the date, but I’m not going to tell you.' "

Thank you for your work of logic, but you've missed the forest by staring at one tree. In doing so, you've missed what Jesus is talking about and what He is really saying.

Jesus's point in the section is that people should live lives of alertness and obedience because the hour of His return is not able to be predicted by calculation and reason. This is his point: "Your priority as Christians is to be faithful and holy. Dwell on that." It is in that light that He claims that only the Father knows. His purpose is not to admit ignorance or that He is not omniscient, but to indicate that vigilance, not calculation, is what is being required of them. Other events, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, will be so obvious that they can be clearly foreseen so much so that people will have time to runaway to escape the devastation. Jesus's return, however, will not be like that. It will catch people off-guard, no matter how diligently they try to do the math and study the Scriptures to discern the date of His return.

He is also making a statement that some jobs belong to the Father alone. The Father was the creator, and Jesus was the agent of that creation. It was the Father who sent the Son to the cross—granted, by the Son's cooperation. It is also the Father's "job" to send Jesus back to Earth, and Jesus will be the agent of that return (obviously). This is what Jesus is saying, not that He lacks omniscience. Jesus is God and is therefore omniscient; He cannot cease to be omniscient and remain God any more than a square can cease to have four sides and remain a square.
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Re: Mark 13:32 - Jesus is not omniscient and not god

Postby August » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:39 pm

If he's saying that some jobs belong to the father alone, then they are not one and you are a polytheist.
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Re: Mark 13:32 - Jesus is not omniscient and not god

Postby jimwalton » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:39 pm

Instead, what it means is that the Persons of the Trinity have their areas of operation. They are one essence but differ in their actions. The Trinity distinguishes between the principle of divine action and the subject of divine action. The principle of all divine action is the one undivided divine essence, but the subject of divine action is either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. The Father can send the Son according to his power, and the Son can be incarnated according to his nature without dividing the divine essence. This is different from polytheism, which on analysis is a self-defeating proposition.

There is a reality of quantum mechanics called superposition. In superposition, a particle can exist in two different forms and places simultaneously. Though the analogy only takes us so far, it's an intriguing look at how the Trinity possibly works. One essence, yet distinctions as the subjects of divine action.
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Re: Mark 13:32 - Jesus is not omniscient and not god

Postby Tony Hawk » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:16 pm

> They are one essence but differ in their actions.

Traditional trinitarianism says that their actions/operations are not differentiated though and this is one of the big themes in the Nicene fathers as to why the trinity doesn't equal three gods. Do you just not agree with this idea?
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Re: Mark 13:32 - Jesus is not omniscient and not god

Postby jimwalton » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:36 pm

The Nicene Creed declared the Son as homoousios (coequal not subordinate, consubstantial [of one essence], and coeternal) with the Father. I see nothing in the creed claiming that the actions/operations of the Persons of the Trinity are not differentiated.

There was concern that the concept of homoousios might split the Godhead into two as it if were a material thing, but this understanding is rejected. Homoousias does not preclude or negate differentiation of actions/operations but only rather of the notions of Arianism or polytheism.
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Re: Mark 13:32 - Jesus is not omniscient and not god

Postby August » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:48 am

So when you want a favor granted, which one do you pray to? Which specializes in what?
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Re: Mark 13:32 - Jesus is not omniscient and not god

Postby jimwalton » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:49 am

We pray to the Father, in Jesus's name. The Bible instructs us to pray only to the Father. He, then, is the one to deal with it as He sees fit.
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Re: Mark 13:32 - Jesus is not omniscient and not god

Postby Tony Hawk » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:27 am

I said that it is in the Nicene fathers, not that it was explicitly in the creed itself. The doctrine of 'inseparable operations' was a defining feature of the pro-Nicene side to which the major Nicene figures like the Cappadocians, Hilary, Ambrose, and Augustine all believed and had to defend against their opponents. Here are a few quotes from them and more:

Since then the Holy Trinity fulfills every operation in a manner similar to that of which I have spoken, not by separate action according to the number of the Persons, but so that there is one motion and disposition of the good will which is communicated from the Father through the Son to the Spirit . . . But in the case of the Divine nature we do not similarly learn that the Father does anything by Himself in which the Son does not work conjointly, or again that the Son has any special operation apart from the Holy Spirit; but every operation which extends from God to the Creation, and is named according to our variable conceptions of it, has its origin from the Father, and proceeds through the Son, and is perfected in the Holy Spirit. For this reason the name derived from the operation is not divided with regard to the number of those who fulfill it, because the action of each concerning anything is not separate and peculiar, but whatever comes to pass, in reference either to the acts of His providence for us, or to the government and constitution of the universe, comes to pass by the action of the Three — Gregory of Nyssa, "To Ablabius."


just as Father and Son and Holy Spirit are inseparable, so do they work inseparably. This is also my faith inasmuch as it is the Catholic faith. — Augustine, "De Trinitate."


We have frequently said, however, that the operations of the Trinity are inseparable. — Augustine, "Commentary on the Gospel of John."


Lastly, that one may not think in that there is any difference of work either in time or in order between the Father and the Son, but may believe the oneness of the same operation, He says: “The works which I do, He doeth.” And again, that one may not think that there is any difference in the distinction of the works , but may judge that the will, the working, and the power of the Father and the Son are the same, Wisdom says concerning the Father: “For whatsoever things He doeth, the Son doeth the same likewise.” So that the action of neither Person is before or after that of the Other, but the same result of one operation. And for this reason the Son says that He can do nothing “of Himself,” because His operation cannot be separated from that of the Father. In like manner the operation of the Holy Spirit is not separated. Whence also the things which He speaks, He is said to “hear” from the Father. — Ambrose, "On the Holy Spirit."


And since He wished, therefore, to confess the power of his nature He stated: ‘This Son can do nothing of Himself, but only what He sees the Father doing’ . . . Because He was aware of His Father's power and strength that was with Him, the Son asserted that He could do nothing by Himself except what He saw the Father doing . . . all the things that the Father does the Son does in a like manner. This is the understanding of the true birth and the most complete mystery of our faith — Hilary of Poitiers, "De Trinitate."


For when some time ago, as now again, the heretics’ venom began to creep in, and the Arians’ blasphemy especially had begun to emerge, our predecessors, bishops together with legates from the city of the most holy bishop of Rome, were brought together in council at Nicaea … and drove out the deadly cups with this antidote, so that it was proper to believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of one Godhead, one power, one form, one substance. For we all say with one voice that the Trinity is of one power, one majesty, one Godhead, one substance so as to be an inseparable power . . . We assert that the Son is not dissimilar in operation, not dissimilar in power, or in anything at all dissimilar … Let us also confess that the Holy Spirit is uncreated but of one majesty, one substance, one power with God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. — Pope Damasus, "Epistle 2."


For we confess this Blessed Trinity to be One God for this reason, because in these three Persons there is no diversity either of substance, or of power, or of will, or of operation. — Pope Leo the Great, "Sermon 75."


The Holy Trinity has therefore the same Operation, and whatsoever things the Father doth and willeth to accomplish, these things doth the Son too in equal manner, likewise the Spirit also. But the giving of the Operations severally to Each of the Persons individually is nought else than to set forth three gods severally and wholly distinct from one another. For the count of Natural Unity in regard to the Holy Trinity, shews I suppose one motion unto every thing that is done. But if now we say that while One Person is moved, e.g., to work, the Two remain ineffective, how is not a gross severance privily introduced, allotting as a certain position to each Person, the being conceived of external to and isolated from the rest, not in respect of His Individual Being (for that were true), but in respect of utter diversity which does not endure language that gathers them into Natural Union? For One Nature of Godhead is conceived of in the Holy and Consubstantial Trinity. — Cyril of Alexandria, "Five Tomes Against Nestorius."


The Catholic Church has kept itself away from all these, as from so many pitfalls, and, instructed by the Holy Trinity, it teaches rightly and religiously and cries out: We believe in Father and Son and Holy Ghost; one Godhood in three hypostases; one will, one operation, alike in three persons; By the three Persons we understand that God is uncompounded and without confusion; by the consubstantiality of the Persons and their existence in one another and by the indivisibility of the identity of will, operation, virtue, power, and, so to speak, motion we understand that God is one . . .
For, here, that which is common and one is considered in actuality by reason of the co-eternity and identity of substance, operation, and will, and by reason of the agreement in judgment and the identity of power, virtue, and goodness-I did not say similarity, but identity - and by reason of the one surge of motion. For there is one essence, one goodness, one virtue, one intent, one operation, one power-one and the same, not three similar one to another, but one and the same motion of the three Person . . . For with the uncircumcised Godhead we cannot speak of any difference in place, as we do with ourselves, because the Persons exist in one another, not so as to be confused, but so as to adhere closely together as expressed in the words of the Lord when He said: 'I in the Father and the Father in me.' Neither can we speak of a difference in will, or judgment, or operation, or virtue, or any other whatsoever of those things which in us give rise to a definite real distinction. For that reason, we do not call the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost three Gods, but one God — John of Damascus, "Fount of Knowledge."


And here are a few quotes from some modern historians/theologians:

One of the most important principles shared by pro-Nicenes is that whenever one of the divine persons acts, all are present, acting inseparably. — Lewis Ayres, "Nicaea and Its Legacy," p. 280


The inseparable operation of the three irreducible persons is a fundamental axiom of those theologies which provide the context for the Council of Constantinople in AD 381 and for the reinterpretation of Nicaea, which came to be the foundation of orthodox or catholic theology at the end of the fourth century. Lewis Ayres, "The Fundamental Grammar of Augustine's Trinitarian Theology."


The anti-Arian polemics of the fourth century eventually gave rise to a consensus Trinitarian grammar, often referred to as pro-Nicene theology, by which the unity of God is understood in terms of one divine essence common to all three persons. Understood as a consequence of this account of divine unity, the doctrine of the inseparable operations of the Trinity ad extra contends that all of the works of the Triune God with respect to the creation are works of all three persons of the Godhead. This doctrine, often expressed by the Latin axiom, opera trinitatis ad extra sunt indivisa has been a staple of orthodox Trinitarian theology for centuries. Statements and defense of the doctrine can be found among the Church fathers of the East (e.g. Athanasius and Gregory of Nyssa) and the West (e.g. Hilary of Poitiers and Augustine) as they engaged in anti-Arian polemical discourse. The doctrine is later expressed and defended by the medieval giant Thomas Aquinas and is fully embraced by the seventeenth-century Reformed Orthodox in their polemical engagement with the Socinians. The nineteenth-century heirs and defenders of Reformed Orthodoxy (e.g. Herman Bavinck and Charles Hodge) also held to this doctrine without wavering. — Kyle Claunch, "What God Hath Done Together."


One of the key axioms of pro-Nicene theology is the the "inseparable operation" of the divine persons, Anti-Nicenes argued that the distinct activity of the divine persons meant that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate beings, with the Father being ontologically superior. In response pro-Nicenes like Ambrose and Hilary argued that Scripture demonstrates that all three persons are involved in acts of creation, providence and redemption. Thus, Father, Son and Holy Spirit share one nature. The inseparable action of the divine persons represents one of the fundamental elements of Augustine's trinitarian grammar. — Keith E. Johnson, "Rethinking the Trinity and Religious Pluralism: An Augustinian Assessment," p. 53.
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Re: Mark 13:32 - Jesus is not omniscient and not god

Postby jimwalton » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:29 am

> The doctrine of 'inseparable operations'

You misunderstand me. I appreciate the quotes, and will save them. Great stuff. What I'm saying is that the Godhead works as a single, unified essence (inseparable operations) but that each Person of the Trinity has His specific role to play in the effect of those operations. If we think of the D-Day invasion of Normandy (I know, it's ultimately an inadequate analogy, but superficially it makes the grade), the Army Air Corp, Navy, and Marines were acting as a single until towards a single operation to effect a singular goal: establish a beachhead. In the process, the Air Corp pounded the beach from the skies (their job), the Navy transported the invasion troops (their job), and the Marines swarmed over the sand and the German installations.

The three members of the Trinity are separate Persons with unique tasks, but they work as one. Certainly the Father was not incarnated; certainly the Son didn't hover over the waters (Gn. 1.2); certainly the Spirit was not the agent/medium of creation (Jn. 1.3; Heb. 1.2).

We see it in Gregory of Nyssa: "...has its origin from the Father, and proceeds through the Son, and is perfected in the Holy Spirit." Each in their place.

You quoted Augustine, but he himself saw the Father as the initiator, the Son as Mediator, and the Spirit as unifier.

I would assuredly never contend in an Anti-Nicene way that the Father, Son, and Spirit are separate beings. That position is simply unbiblical.
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