Board index ‹ God

[Paladin]

It may be helpful to distinguish between personal one-on-one interactions and impersonal, removed, en-mass "signs and wonders".

For the sake of argument, I'll let you have the en-mass stuff.

But what I'm talking about is a direct, personal interaction. Those were almost always beneficial and successful. Would you disagree?

[jimwalton]

Great question. It's such a good question, if you don't mind, I'm going to think outloud here, writing as I'm thinking without working ahead. My mind is going through the Bible, looking for times God actually, like, showed up—direct, personal interaction. I'll just start writing.

1. Adam and Eve saw God (direct, personal interaction), and then disobeyed him (Gn. 3.1-7)
2. God spoke to Cain (direct, personal interaction), who then disobeyed him and murdered his brother (Gn. 4.6-16)
3. God spoke to Noah, who obeyed him (Gn. 6.13-22ff.), but then screwed up pretty royally (Gn. 9.20-23).
4. God spoke to Abraham and gave him special visions of direct, personal interaction (Gn. 12.1; 15.12-21; etc.). Abe sometimes obeyed and sometimes not.
5. God spoke to Isaac. We know close to nothing about him.
6. God spoke to Jacob and gave him a spectacular vision (Gn. 28.10-18). Jacob was pretty much a jerk for most of his life.

That's Genesis. It's not looking good for direct, personal interaction.

I can continue, but I wonder if I need to hear from you at this point rather than push on through Exodus and beyond.

Great question. It's such a good question, if you don't mind, I'm going to think outloud here, writing as I'm thinking without working ahead. My mind is going through the Bible, looking for times God actually, like, showed up—direct, personal interaction. I'll just start writing.

1. Adam and Eve saw God (direct, personal interaction), and then disobeyed him (Gn. 3.1-7)
2. God spoke to Cain (direct, personal interaction), who then disobeyed him and murdered his brother (Gn. 4.6-16)
3. God spoke to Noah, who obeyed him (Gn. 6.13-22ff.), but then screwed up pretty royally (Gn. 9.20-23).
4. God spoke to Abraham and gave him special visions of direct, personal interaction (Gn. 12.1; 15.12-21; etc.). Abe sometimes obeyed and sometimes not.
5. God spoke to Isaac. We know close to nothing about him.
6. God spoke to Jacob and gave him a spectacular vision (Gn. 28.10-18). Jacob was pretty much a jerk for most of his life.

We have two people in Genesis who seem to be exemplary: Enoch (Gn. 5.24) and Joseph (Gn. 37-50). We're not told about Enoch's interactions with God and what they were like, only that he "walked with God," but what that means or entails is not explained. We're not aware that Joseph had any direct, personal interaction with God except through one dream in particular.

That's Genesis. It's not looking good for direct, personal interaction.

I can continue, but I wonder if I need to hear from you at this point rather than push on through Exodus and beyond.

[Paladin]

What we see in your examples are cases where a person experienced God, and at some point later in time did something wrong. All that shows is that such encounters do not make a person morally perfect from that point onward.
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But generally speaking, each person you gave (except Cain -- I'll give you that one!) 1) believed God exists, 2) had a relationship with God, and 3) was held up as an example of faith in the Bible. Looks pretty good for direct, personal interaction
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Plus, let's consider the alternative to each of those. What if God had NOT appeared to those parties?
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* Adam and Eve would have never known God. They didn't have the Bible or any other source of truth, if you take the story literally. It was the beginning of the world, after all.
* Cain wouldn't have been jealous about the offering business, but he seems like a jerk so I'm sure he would have done something bad eventually. I'm giving you that one, remember?
* Noah would have not known God in any sort of meaningful way, and then would have drowned in the flood.
* Abraham would likely have not known "the true God" either, and would have died in Ur.
* Similar stories for Isaac and Jacob.

[jimwalton]

> What we see in your examples are cases where a person experienced God, and at some point later in time did something wrong. All that shows is that such encounters do not make a person morally perfect from that point onward.

That's true. Your perception is accurate, but I think your original point was "God wants you to believe in pencils more than Himself," and "if God really does exist and wants a relationship with us -- and if this relationship is the single most important thing to “get right” -- then why would God not give us more epistemic access to his own existence … than that of a pencil?? This seems incompatible with the existence of a God who wants to have a relationship with us."

What I was getting at is that direct, personal interaction with God doesn't guarantee that relationship. I think what it comes down to is that God's reluctance to appear to each one of us in blazing color is NOT incompatible with the existence of a God who wants to have a relationship with us.

> Adam and Eve would have never known God. ... Noah would not have known God ... Abraham would like have not known...

You're RIGHT. That's the whole point: God wants us to know Him. What we have to try to learn is how that best happens. In the Bible, it is the initiation of the covenant that is the mechanism by which God makes Himself known. It seems to be a more productive method than direct, personal interaction.

God has a plan in history that he is sovereignly executing. The goal of that plan is for him to be in relationship with the people whom he has created. It would be difficult for people to enter into a relationship with a God whom they do not know. If his nature were concealed, obscured, or distorted, an honest relationship would be impossible. In order to clear the way for this relationship, then, God has undertaken as a primary objective a program of self-revelation. He wants people to know him. The mechanism that drives this program is the covenant, and the instrument is Israel. The purpose of the covenant is to reveal God.