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[Letters]

What if he chooses to manipulate only some humans? How are you able to judge the deceptive abilities of a being with possibly infinite power? Maybe that’s part of God’s plan?

[jimwalton]

You're reaching so hard for this, but it just doesn't make sense. If God chooses to manipulate only some humans, then it's ultimately ineffective. It doesn't accomplish the goal, so what's the point?

> How are you able to judge the deceptive abilities of a being with possibly infinite power?

As I said, since you have asked this question, it shows that God is not doing this. He's obviously not using his infinite power to deceive you, so what's the point?

You keep trying to make God into this effective deceiver, but at the same time you're showing that God isn't a very effective deceiver. You are standing on your own foot.

[Letters]

Again, you as a human with limited capabilities cannot judge the plan of an infinitely powerful being. Maybe he chooses to only deceive sometimes. Maybe his plan involves only some deception, that’s not for us to say. All I can say, is that there is no inherent reason to believe that god is not deceiving us.

Isn’t it a common talking point for Christian’s when confronted with issues in God’s omnibenevolence that it is simply part of God’s plan?

Why do hurricanes, droughts, and natural disasters exist? Why does the devil exist? If God is so kind and merciful, then he is doing quite the lousy job when millions/billions of us today suffer from ailments, starvation, etc.

[jimwalton]

> you as a human with limited capabilities cannot judge the plan of an infinitely powerful being.

Except that's EXACTLY what you are doing to press your case. So are we able to judge the plan of an infinitely powerful being or aren't we. You are, but you are claiming we cannot.

> there is no inherent reason to believe that god is not deceiving us.

There is. I've already shown you it's nonsense. And the fact that you are showing you are not deceived while claiming there is no reason to believe God is not deceiving us isn't convincing me of your case.

> Isn’t it a common talking point for Christian’s when confronted with issues in God’s omnibenevolence that it is simply part of God’s plan?

Some do, but I don't adhere to that position. It's not a biblical position, but instead one that makes people feel good.

> Why do hurricanes, droughts, and natural disasters exist?

This is a completely different discussion, but they exist because the world can only function in a state of growth and survival (perpetuation) if nature is dynamic rather than static. It's how the Earth continually balances itself and how all fauna is able to think, heal, and grow.

> Why does the devil exist?

This is a different discussion, but the devil exists because free will is an essential component of sentient life.

> If God is so kind and merciful, then he is doing quite the lousy job when millions/billions of us today suffer from ailments, starvation, etc.

This is a different discussion, but suffering does not exclude either God's omnipotence or His omnibenevolence. The problem of evil and suffering has been a deeply explored topic through the millennia, and at least one bottom line is that the existence of evil and suffering doesn't negate the possibility of a kind and merciful God.

[Letters]

No no no, I am not judging his plan at all, I’m saying that there is no reason to think he is not deceitful vs deceitful.

I’m not judging what he is doing, I am judging what he COULD be doing.

You really haven’t shown any good reason as to why God is not deceitful, but rather your personal opinion that I am “Reaching” by some arbitrary standard.

Your argument is that evil occurring does not negate the possibility of a kind god. My argument is that people having differing opinions does not negate the fact that god could be deceitful in some ways.

You’re reaching in ways that aren’t any further than how I am “reaching.”

[jimwalton]

> I’m saying that there is no reason to think he is not deceitful vs deceitful.

We're going in circles. We have EVERY reason to know that he is not deceitful vs. deceitful. We are able to think, reason, and evaluate. We can discern right from wrong, truth from error. If we can figure this out, there is no way God is "getting away with it," which means your theory doesn't hold water. But we've been through this.

> I’m not judging what he is doing, I am judging what he COULD be doing.

But He CAN'T be doing it if He is so easy to figure out. You're showing me that He's getting away with nothing because you've been able to discern that He COULD be doing this, and therefore He's unsuccessful that doing this.

> You really haven’t shown any good reason as to why God is not deceitful,

I have shown you, several times. I showed you by way of analogy about "I always lie." Then I showed you by way of logic. Then I showed you by way of the law of contradiction. Then I showed you by way of obvious ineffectiveness.

> Your argument is that evil occurring does not negate the possibility of a kind god.

I didn't really give you an argument; I made a brief comment. The issue of the theodicy of the reality of evil is long and deep. What I said is that it's a change of subject, a very deep discussion, and a case that has been made hundreds of times through the eras, and that can't just be brushed off casually.

Just briefly, if evil and theism are mutually contradictory, I must by necessity have to admit that one of the following is untrue:

• God exists
• God is omnipotent
• God is omniscient
• God is wholly good
• Evil exists

None of these, by themselves, formally create a contradiction. Something must be added to bring that about. As Alvin Plantinga says, "If a statement is added, it must necessarily contradict all five of the statements above, and all five of the statements must contradict it. ... No one has yet succeeded in producing such a proposition." In other words, The existence of a good, all-powerful, all-knowing God does not inherently make the reality of evil a contradiction or an impossibility, nor does the existence of evil inherently prove that God cannot be good, all-knowing, or all-powerful.

> My argument is that people having differing opinions does not negate the fact that god could be deceitful in some ways.

I never claimed that it did. What I have said multiple times is that if God is deceitful in some way, that's fairly easy to figure out, and so His allegedly deceitful ways aren't really very deceitful. Another contradiction.