I guess I didn't know that—about God's power. I thought God was all powerful and could do what he wants. Should I have known that? What do mean "he sets out to do "? I thought with God anything is possible?
When I say "God is in control," I guess for me it was/is what I think when I don't want to handle life or what's going on right then. I guess it was to make me feel better ...which now when I put that in words sounds so WRONG!! So is that song wrong ("God is in control")? Why is that a common Christian thought?
I know God doesn't cause sin but he knew from the start what Hitler was going to do. Couldn't he have stopped it or changed the course of history? Why didn't he? Free will, I am guessing.
Speaking of free will, why can't God interfere with it? He is God, so couldn't he? Also, does God really just give free will to teach us? Maybe that's a dumb question.
Knowing that I don't have to find God's will for my life. That's nice to know—Haha—it takes off the pressure. Why then do people say "make sure it's in God's will"—what does that mean, exactly?
How do I know if my heart is in a good spot with the Lord?
What does trust mean (trusting in the Lord)? I thought I knew, but I don't think I do.
You are making adjustments in my thinking, but it's a good thing.
How do I know if I am understanding the Bible?
So how am I suppose to take the Bible?
Sorry these questions are all over the place. I have these questions in my head and I don't know how to put them in an organized way. They do make sense in my head. Hopefully they make sense to you.
Board index ‹ Assorted Bible Questions
Re: Why should I stick with my faith?
by jimwalton » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:22 pm
I’m glad you’re asking. It doesn’t matter that it’s “flow of thought” instead of organized. I can still understand what you’re asking. And don’t be afraid to ask stuff. That’s what I’m hear for. You’re not asking dumb questions.
A lot of people just don’t stop to think that when we say “God is all-powerful” we aren’t claiming He can do everything. Of course He can’t: He can’t sin. He can’t act in ways that aren’t God’s ways—you know, common sense stuff like that. He can’t do contradictory stuff like make 2 = 3 or make a square circle. Those are just absurd things, and we can’t have an honest discussion with people if they want to talk about absurd things like that. But it turns out there are lots of things God can’t do. But you’re right that God is all-powerful and can do what he wants—but he only WANTS things that are God things, that aren’t self-contradictions, and that aren’t against who He is. That only makes sense, but people just don’t stop to think it through.
“With God anything is possible.” Is this true? Yes, but only in the context of things that are possible. As I said, it’s not possible that 2=3, that a circle be square, or that God sin. So we have to understand the context of that statement. What that verse means is that God can do what He sets out to do. You asked what I mean by that. It means that when God starts to do something, there is no power that can prevent him from doing it because it has more power. He is free to change His mind, He is free to let other powers interfere (if he chooses), but it’s never because something else is more powerful.
“God is in control.” Yeah, some people mean they find strength and confidence in that these things are not stronger than God, and that’s both good and true. And it does make people feel better, and it should. But some people mean that God has done all these things and had a reason for doing them. That’s not true. God doesn’t do all these things. God doesn’t sin, cause sin, or take part in sin. So there are lots of things God doesn’t control. As you mention, He was not part of what Hitler was doing; God would have been working AGAINST Hitler. Didn’t God know it was going to happen? Sure He did. Why didn’t He stop it? That goes back to what we said in earlier emails. God can’t stop all evil things from happening because we wouldn’t be human. (Remember that conversation?) And God generally doesn’t stop much of it at all. What He does is redeem the evil, helps us through it, possibly bring benefits from it, and stuff. God intervenes in our lives a lot, but often not in the ways people assume. As I said in another earlier conversation, mostly what the Bible says God does in our lives is internal stuff, not changing our circumstances.
Why is “God is in control” such a common Christian thought? (1) People have been taught wrong; (2) People don’t bother to think it through; (3) it makes people feel better.
“Free will.” Why can’t God interfere with it? Again, let’s think it through. Free will, by definition, means its free. Supposing God gave us free will but then only let us choose good things. Well, that’s wouldn’t be free will at all. It’s like saying you can have any flavor ice cream you want as long as it’s vanilla. That’s not a choice. If free will isn’t completely free, then it’s not free will. If God interferes with it, then it’s not free will, but we were MADE to do it. Now, it’s different if I use my free to say to someone else, “You decide for me.” And it’s at that point that God can interfere and make decisions for us, because we gave Him permission to. But see, we used our free will to do that. That’s what God wants us to do: turn our lives over to Him. But if He just butts in and starts running things, then it turns out we’re not free after all, and we could easily just blame God for all kinds of stuff, including our sin. But it’s not true. God’s not “in control” like that, and He can’t be. It’s against His character.
"God’s will.” Why do people say, “Make sure it’s in God’s will”? Just like many other things: (1) They haven’t been taught what the Bible really says, (2) people don’t bother to think it through; (3) it makes people feel better, and (4) they can blame bad decisions on God (“Well, God told me to do this,” or “God led me to do this”). If you study the Bible, you find that God doesn’t have a plan for your life that you have to somehow discover and conform to. That just leads to all kinds of stress (“God isn’t telling me!”) or frustration (“I’ve been praying but God but haven’t heard an answer”). Instead God expects us to use the brains He gave us to make the wisest decisions we know how, and to be in prayer continually about them, but still just make decisions ourselves. And if God really wants us to do a particular thing or be in a particular place, He will make sure that happens. And there are such things as divine appointments, but I’m not convinced that every contact is a divine appointment. God doesn’t micro-manage our lives like that. If He did we’d be robots instead of having free will.
“How do i know if my heart is in a good spot with the Lord?” Another good question. Rather than evaluating (like trying to give ourselves a score), it’s better just to seek God with everything we have and to love Him as deeply as we can, and the relationship will take care of itself. With my life, I tell her every day how much I love her, and I make sure I use every day to serve her and to help her to be all that God created her to be. When I do that, the relationship is good. So I’m not trying to make the relationship good, I’m trying to live in love, consciously loving her with every word and every action, and living to help her be awesome. I do the same with God, and then my heart IS in a good spot.
Other than that, I’d say that if you’re involved in some willful or regular sin, that’s going to keep you from that “good spot”. Instead, ditch that trash and just give Him everything you’ve got.
“What does ‘trust’ mean?” It’s belief, it’s knowledge, and it’s the love relationship itself. When we trust God, we are acknowledging before Him that we don’t know what the next minute will bring. Our ways, our thoughts, our intuitions, and preferences, have to be transformed by the renewing of our minds (Rom. 12.2). We have enough knowledge about His character and His ways that we can trust in him rather than ourselves. We know who we are in Him and where we stand. And we know that He always treats his children with love.
“How do I know if I am understanding the Bible?” Another good question. (1) The Bible will agree with itself and with all other truth when we are understanding it properly (for instance, there is no disagreement between the Bible and science, or history, or anything else); (2) God will speak to us through the Bible when we are understanding it properly; (3) when we let the Bible interpret itself we are understanding it properly, and (4) when our understanding of the text is based on good biblical scholarship, we are understanding it properly.
“How am I supposed to take the Bible?” I’m not sure I understand this question enough to answer it. I’m not sure what you mean, so ask it again with different words so I don’t either answer the wrong question or answer it wrong (something I never want to do). But maybe rather than just a generality like this, maybe ask about a specific text and we can discuss it.
Let’s keep talking.
A lot of people just don’t stop to think that when we say “God is all-powerful” we aren’t claiming He can do everything. Of course He can’t: He can’t sin. He can’t act in ways that aren’t God’s ways—you know, common sense stuff like that. He can’t do contradictory stuff like make 2 = 3 or make a square circle. Those are just absurd things, and we can’t have an honest discussion with people if they want to talk about absurd things like that. But it turns out there are lots of things God can’t do. But you’re right that God is all-powerful and can do what he wants—but he only WANTS things that are God things, that aren’t self-contradictions, and that aren’t against who He is. That only makes sense, but people just don’t stop to think it through.
“With God anything is possible.” Is this true? Yes, but only in the context of things that are possible. As I said, it’s not possible that 2=3, that a circle be square, or that God sin. So we have to understand the context of that statement. What that verse means is that God can do what He sets out to do. You asked what I mean by that. It means that when God starts to do something, there is no power that can prevent him from doing it because it has more power. He is free to change His mind, He is free to let other powers interfere (if he chooses), but it’s never because something else is more powerful.
“God is in control.” Yeah, some people mean they find strength and confidence in that these things are not stronger than God, and that’s both good and true. And it does make people feel better, and it should. But some people mean that God has done all these things and had a reason for doing them. That’s not true. God doesn’t do all these things. God doesn’t sin, cause sin, or take part in sin. So there are lots of things God doesn’t control. As you mention, He was not part of what Hitler was doing; God would have been working AGAINST Hitler. Didn’t God know it was going to happen? Sure He did. Why didn’t He stop it? That goes back to what we said in earlier emails. God can’t stop all evil things from happening because we wouldn’t be human. (Remember that conversation?) And God generally doesn’t stop much of it at all. What He does is redeem the evil, helps us through it, possibly bring benefits from it, and stuff. God intervenes in our lives a lot, but often not in the ways people assume. As I said in another earlier conversation, mostly what the Bible says God does in our lives is internal stuff, not changing our circumstances.
Why is “God is in control” such a common Christian thought? (1) People have been taught wrong; (2) People don’t bother to think it through; (3) it makes people feel better.
“Free will.” Why can’t God interfere with it? Again, let’s think it through. Free will, by definition, means its free. Supposing God gave us free will but then only let us choose good things. Well, that’s wouldn’t be free will at all. It’s like saying you can have any flavor ice cream you want as long as it’s vanilla. That’s not a choice. If free will isn’t completely free, then it’s not free will. If God interferes with it, then it’s not free will, but we were MADE to do it. Now, it’s different if I use my free to say to someone else, “You decide for me.” And it’s at that point that God can interfere and make decisions for us, because we gave Him permission to. But see, we used our free will to do that. That’s what God wants us to do: turn our lives over to Him. But if He just butts in and starts running things, then it turns out we’re not free after all, and we could easily just blame God for all kinds of stuff, including our sin. But it’s not true. God’s not “in control” like that, and He can’t be. It’s against His character.
"God’s will.” Why do people say, “Make sure it’s in God’s will”? Just like many other things: (1) They haven’t been taught what the Bible really says, (2) people don’t bother to think it through; (3) it makes people feel better, and (4) they can blame bad decisions on God (“Well, God told me to do this,” or “God led me to do this”). If you study the Bible, you find that God doesn’t have a plan for your life that you have to somehow discover and conform to. That just leads to all kinds of stress (“God isn’t telling me!”) or frustration (“I’ve been praying but God but haven’t heard an answer”). Instead God expects us to use the brains He gave us to make the wisest decisions we know how, and to be in prayer continually about them, but still just make decisions ourselves. And if God really wants us to do a particular thing or be in a particular place, He will make sure that happens. And there are such things as divine appointments, but I’m not convinced that every contact is a divine appointment. God doesn’t micro-manage our lives like that. If He did we’d be robots instead of having free will.
“How do i know if my heart is in a good spot with the Lord?” Another good question. Rather than evaluating (like trying to give ourselves a score), it’s better just to seek God with everything we have and to love Him as deeply as we can, and the relationship will take care of itself. With my life, I tell her every day how much I love her, and I make sure I use every day to serve her and to help her to be all that God created her to be. When I do that, the relationship is good. So I’m not trying to make the relationship good, I’m trying to live in love, consciously loving her with every word and every action, and living to help her be awesome. I do the same with God, and then my heart IS in a good spot.
Other than that, I’d say that if you’re involved in some willful or regular sin, that’s going to keep you from that “good spot”. Instead, ditch that trash and just give Him everything you’ve got.
“What does ‘trust’ mean?” It’s belief, it’s knowledge, and it’s the love relationship itself. When we trust God, we are acknowledging before Him that we don’t know what the next minute will bring. Our ways, our thoughts, our intuitions, and preferences, have to be transformed by the renewing of our minds (Rom. 12.2). We have enough knowledge about His character and His ways that we can trust in him rather than ourselves. We know who we are in Him and where we stand. And we know that He always treats his children with love.
“How do I know if I am understanding the Bible?” Another good question. (1) The Bible will agree with itself and with all other truth when we are understanding it properly (for instance, there is no disagreement between the Bible and science, or history, or anything else); (2) God will speak to us through the Bible when we are understanding it properly; (3) when we let the Bible interpret itself we are understanding it properly, and (4) when our understanding of the text is based on good biblical scholarship, we are understanding it properly.
“How am I supposed to take the Bible?” I’m not sure I understand this question enough to answer it. I’m not sure what you mean, so ask it again with different words so I don’t either answer the wrong question or answer it wrong (something I never want to do). But maybe rather than just a generality like this, maybe ask about a specific text and we can discuss it.
Let’s keep talking.
- jimwalton
- Site Admin
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Re: Why should I stick with my faith?
by Nic J » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:24 am
So how I am suppose to take the Bible what I mean is how literal am I suppose to take it? Like did God actually create the earth in 7 days or was it a span of time that the earth was created . ( I believe or what I have been taught he created it in 7 days . Boom done. I mean why couldn't God do that ? Also maybe this is just me and this gonna sound weird but when I am reading the Bible and Jesus is speaking I feel like he is being scarastic. ( depending when/ who he is speaking too ) First is that wrong to think that or take it that ? Second is that totally out of Jesus's character? Also this might be such a dumb/ silly question but I am being serious.
What do you mean by " God things "?
Is God having a call on your life the same thing as him having a will for your life ?
This whole free will thing has me confused ??
What do you mean by " God things "?
Is God having a call on your life the same thing as him having a will for your life ?
This whole free will thing has me confused ??
- Nic J
Re: Why should I stick with my faith?
by jimwalton » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:20 pm
I apologize for confusing you. I always try to bring people into better understanding, not to confuse them more. But if seems as if there are a lot of these things you haven’t thought about before, so at least that is good. We should think through what we believe. In any case, though, I’m sorry for making you more confused. I’ll try to do better.
“How am I supposed to take the Bible? How literal am I supposed to take it?” Each text has to be taken for its own meaning. There’s no way to answer your question with a generalization. Each text stands on its own. We can talk about specific texts if you want.
“Did God actually create the earth in 7 days?” Genesis 1 & 2 are some of the most disagreed about texts in the whole Bible. Very godly and really smart Christians are on all sides of the issue. So you picked a tough one for an example. I happen to believe life evolved like the scientists say, but that God guided and directed the entire process, so He created it, but over a long period of time. I happen to believe that Genesis 1 is about how the world are life are supposed to function, not about how they came about. But, as I said, many very godly Christians take very different positions on Genesis, and it’s OK. Our views of Genesis don’t change whether we are saved or not. We take different views, and we still love each other, worship with each other, and we don’t judge each other.
“I feel like Jesus is being sarcastic.” Jesus is never sarcastic, if I’m remembering right, but sometimes he speaks the truth forcefully and not just sweetly. Some of his parables have irony, allegory, and even criticism in them, but I don’t remember sarcasm. Jesus used his harshest language against religious people who were hypocrites. He spoke more strongly against them then he did against the terrible sinners. It’s a good warning for us all. But we can talk about specific texts if you want. Jesus is never mean or nasty, but sometimes he speaks very strongly. We’d have to look at specific stories or words that he used to get any more specific than that.
“God things.” The Bible tells us that God does only good, that everything God does is loving, that God judges fairly, that God is faithful, and that God doesn’t sin. That’s what I mean by “God things”. He wants people to be saved; He wants us to all be like Jesus; He wants us to love Him and He wants to love us. These are God things. Causing people to sin is not a “God thing.” Doing things that are immoral are not “God things.” Does that help?
“Is God having a call on your life the same thing as him having a will for your life?” They can be, but not necessarily. God called Paul to be an apostle, and Paul’s apostleship was God’s will for him. But if it was God’s will for me to go to Wheaton College (which I did), I wouldn’t necessarily describe that as “God’s call on my life.” We usually think of God’s call as a vocation, and sometimes as a task, and God’s will is often more like situations or sometimes tasks. When the Bible uses “God’s call,” it is almost ALWAYS referring to a call to salvation. The Bible HARDLY EVER uses God’s “call” in any other way, so we have to be very careful about how we toss around “God’s call.” Christians use it a lot for missionaries and pastors, for various other vocational callings, but the Bible uses it almost totally for a call to salvation.
“The whole free will thing has me confused.” Without free will, we wouldn’t be able to think (because we have to weigh options to make decisions, and we have to consider various perspectives to solve problems). We need free will to think. Without free will, science wouldn’t exist (we have to weigh evidence and make inferences to have science). We wouldn’t be able to choose right or wrong without free will. It’s necessary that God created us with free will. Without free will, we wouldn’t be human, we couldn’t make moral decisions, and our brains would be worthless. God created us with free will. There’s no other choice.
But suppose God gave us free will, but only gave us some of the choices, not all of the choices. That wouldn’t be free will. If I said to you, “Let’s go buy some clothes. You can choose whatever you want, except it has to be from this rack.” Well then, you can’t choose whatever you want! Either you’re free to choose whatever you want, or you’re not. So if God made us free, then he can’t tell us we’re not free to do or choose anything, then he didn’t really make us free. And if we’re not free, we’re not really human, we can’t make moral decisions, and our brains are worthless. Or if God keeps interfering in our free wills, making us do stuff, then we’re not free that way either. The only way for free will to be free will is if it’s really free. I hope that helps, but if you still don’t get it, I can keep on trying.
“How am I supposed to take the Bible? How literal am I supposed to take it?” Each text has to be taken for its own meaning. There’s no way to answer your question with a generalization. Each text stands on its own. We can talk about specific texts if you want.
“Did God actually create the earth in 7 days?” Genesis 1 & 2 are some of the most disagreed about texts in the whole Bible. Very godly and really smart Christians are on all sides of the issue. So you picked a tough one for an example. I happen to believe life evolved like the scientists say, but that God guided and directed the entire process, so He created it, but over a long period of time. I happen to believe that Genesis 1 is about how the world are life are supposed to function, not about how they came about. But, as I said, many very godly Christians take very different positions on Genesis, and it’s OK. Our views of Genesis don’t change whether we are saved or not. We take different views, and we still love each other, worship with each other, and we don’t judge each other.
“I feel like Jesus is being sarcastic.” Jesus is never sarcastic, if I’m remembering right, but sometimes he speaks the truth forcefully and not just sweetly. Some of his parables have irony, allegory, and even criticism in them, but I don’t remember sarcasm. Jesus used his harshest language against religious people who were hypocrites. He spoke more strongly against them then he did against the terrible sinners. It’s a good warning for us all. But we can talk about specific texts if you want. Jesus is never mean or nasty, but sometimes he speaks very strongly. We’d have to look at specific stories or words that he used to get any more specific than that.
“God things.” The Bible tells us that God does only good, that everything God does is loving, that God judges fairly, that God is faithful, and that God doesn’t sin. That’s what I mean by “God things”. He wants people to be saved; He wants us to all be like Jesus; He wants us to love Him and He wants to love us. These are God things. Causing people to sin is not a “God thing.” Doing things that are immoral are not “God things.” Does that help?
“Is God having a call on your life the same thing as him having a will for your life?” They can be, but not necessarily. God called Paul to be an apostle, and Paul’s apostleship was God’s will for him. But if it was God’s will for me to go to Wheaton College (which I did), I wouldn’t necessarily describe that as “God’s call on my life.” We usually think of God’s call as a vocation, and sometimes as a task, and God’s will is often more like situations or sometimes tasks. When the Bible uses “God’s call,” it is almost ALWAYS referring to a call to salvation. The Bible HARDLY EVER uses God’s “call” in any other way, so we have to be very careful about how we toss around “God’s call.” Christians use it a lot for missionaries and pastors, for various other vocational callings, but the Bible uses it almost totally for a call to salvation.
“The whole free will thing has me confused.” Without free will, we wouldn’t be able to think (because we have to weigh options to make decisions, and we have to consider various perspectives to solve problems). We need free will to think. Without free will, science wouldn’t exist (we have to weigh evidence and make inferences to have science). We wouldn’t be able to choose right or wrong without free will. It’s necessary that God created us with free will. Without free will, we wouldn’t be human, we couldn’t make moral decisions, and our brains would be worthless. God created us with free will. There’s no other choice.
But suppose God gave us free will, but only gave us some of the choices, not all of the choices. That wouldn’t be free will. If I said to you, “Let’s go buy some clothes. You can choose whatever you want, except it has to be from this rack.” Well then, you can’t choose whatever you want! Either you’re free to choose whatever you want, or you’re not. So if God made us free, then he can’t tell us we’re not free to do or choose anything, then he didn’t really make us free. And if we’re not free, we’re not really human, we can’t make moral decisions, and our brains are worthless. Or if God keeps interfering in our free wills, making us do stuff, then we’re not free that way either. The only way for free will to be free will is if it’s really free. I hope that helps, but if you still don’t get it, I can keep on trying.
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Re: Why should I stick with my faith?
by Nic J » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:59 pm
Hi again ! I didn't mean you confused me I just meant I am just having trouble grasping the idea. You are very good at explaining.
So if each text is different and has a different meaning. Then how am I suppose to know if I am taking the text the right way and taking the correct meaning!?
The sarcastic thing came up at a bible study I go and another girl with me there said " I started reading the Bible with a sarcastic flare". That's why I asked. Being sarcastic is mean, and Jesus wasn't mean right ?!
I understand the free will thing so much better now. Thank you so much for putting in so much effort into explaining it to me.
I have more questions ...if you are okay with it ? And answering them ? I don't want to bother you .
So if each text is different and has a different meaning. Then how am I suppose to know if I am taking the text the right way and taking the correct meaning!?
The sarcastic thing came up at a bible study I go and another girl with me there said " I started reading the Bible with a sarcastic flare". That's why I asked. Being sarcastic is mean, and Jesus wasn't mean right ?!
I understand the free will thing so much better now. Thank you so much for putting in so much effort into explaining it to me.
I have more questions ...if you are okay with it ? And answering them ? I don't want to bother you .
- Nic J
Re: Why should I stick with my faith?
by jimwalton » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:05 pm
Oh, good. I’m glad I’m not adding to your confusion. I just want to help, y’know?
“Each text has a different meaning.” That’s right. Each one has to be taken on its own. It’s really tough to generalize. We can only know we are taking the text the right way because (1) we’ve studied it well, (2) the Holy Spirit helps us to understand it, and (3) we’ve taken the time to know the Bible. There are no short cuts. We pray, we look at the language, we see what the experts say about it, and we come to a right understanding. It’s not rocket science, but it’s not necessarily just as easy as reading it once, either.
“Sarcastic.” Hmm. Yeah, we shouldn't read the Bible with a sarcastic flair. And you’re right that Jesus wasn’t mean. Only in a few places does sarcasm enter the biblical text (like when Elijah jeered at the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel, “Maybe your god is sleeping! Hey, maybe he’s going to the bathroom!” But I’m not aware that Jesus was ever sarcastic.
Feel free to ask as many questions as you want. You’re not bothering me one bit. I’m glad to be having this conversation with you. We can go on as long as it’s helpful to you.
“Each text has a different meaning.” That’s right. Each one has to be taken on its own. It’s really tough to generalize. We can only know we are taking the text the right way because (1) we’ve studied it well, (2) the Holy Spirit helps us to understand it, and (3) we’ve taken the time to know the Bible. There are no short cuts. We pray, we look at the language, we see what the experts say about it, and we come to a right understanding. It’s not rocket science, but it’s not necessarily just as easy as reading it once, either.
“Sarcastic.” Hmm. Yeah, we shouldn't read the Bible with a sarcastic flair. And you’re right that Jesus wasn’t mean. Only in a few places does sarcasm enter the biblical text (like when Elijah jeered at the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel, “Maybe your god is sleeping! Hey, maybe he’s going to the bathroom!” But I’m not aware that Jesus was ever sarcastic.
Feel free to ask as many questions as you want. You’re not bothering me one bit. I’m glad to be having this conversation with you. We can go on as long as it’s helpful to you.
- jimwalton
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Re: Why should I stick with my faith?
by Nic J » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:08 am
I actually just learned about baal and Elijah. I loved it.
So is it okay for someone to be mad at God? How does one get past that? What does God do during that time? Wait?
Does God get mad ever? What's righteousness anger? I hear about it a lot about but I don't know what it is exactly. I thought being anger was bad and a sin.
Now, kinda going in a different different direction..God's Love..that's different from our love, right? How does God love everyone the same ? How does he love the people who aren't following him?
What happens to the people who say they are Christian and saved and then walk away from the faith for good? What happens to them? Do they lose their salvation? Can you lose it? I was taught no .. I am hoping you say the same thing.
Sorry this is a list of questions.
So is it okay for someone to be mad at God? How does one get past that? What does God do during that time? Wait?
Does God get mad ever? What's righteousness anger? I hear about it a lot about but I don't know what it is exactly. I thought being anger was bad and a sin.
Now, kinda going in a different different direction..God's Love..that's different from our love, right? How does God love everyone the same ? How does he love the people who aren't following him?
What happens to the people who say they are Christian and saved and then walk away from the faith for good? What happens to them? Do they lose their salvation? Can you lose it? I was taught no .. I am hoping you say the same thing.
Sorry this is a list of questions.
- Nic J
Re: Why should I stick with my faith?
by jimwalton » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:22 pm
No need to apologize. I don’t mind your questions. I think it’s been a good conversation.
“Is it OK for someone to be mad at God?” I would say yes, but I would also guess that some Christians might disagree with me. I think we have good evidence that there were times David was mad at God (Ps. 10; Ps. 22.1-2; Ps. 74). Habakkuk seems pretty angry at God (Hab. 1.2-4, 12-17). I know that when I was going through my very difficult time, I was extremely angry at God, and I told him so, many times. But I look at it this way: He knows what I’m thinking anyway; I might at well say it. It’s not like if I keep it to myself He doesn’t know about it. I want to be honest in my relationship with God, and when I’m angry, there’s no reason to hide it.
“How does one get past that?” I just be honest with God, and I keep seeking Him. Eventually I had moments of insight where I came to resolution and understanding about things, but it took a long time. Despite my anger, I didn’t turn away from Him, but kept seeking and trying to learn. God honored that, and gave me understanding (after several years; it’s not like it was fast or easy).
“What does God do during that time? Wait?” For some of it He let me suffer even more, which made me even more angry. For some of it He taught me things. He let me struggle through it; He didn’t just pop answers on me. It was a real struggle. But the growth came from the struggle, not from easy and fast answers. I only learned deeply because I sought deeply and was challenged deeply.
“Does God get mad ever? God has wrath that is described as anger, but His wrath is an expression of his holiness against sin, not an emotional response to personal hurt. Even though sometimes the Bible uses the word anger in describing God, it’s very different from our notions of anger. God gets angry when sin is destroying what is good and interfering with what should happen in society and in people’s heart.
“What is righteous anger?” Jesus’ action of turning over the tables of the moneychangers is usually described as righteous anger. It’s anger that isn’t an emotional reflex but an action of a righteous God against that which is unholy. Jesus was taking action against the desecration of the Temple. He was acting prophetically, that God is judging the false religion that Judaism had turned into, that He was symbolically purging the people of their sin, and acting to restore and redeem His people. These will all find their fulfillment at the cross.
Another text where it is said Jesus was angry is Mark 3.5. You’ll notice he was angry because their hearts were so spiritually hard: “He was deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts.” Anyone should be angry when he is trying to do something noble, right, and healing, and he just gets condemned for it by religious people. He was angry because they were not only insensitive to the purposes of God, but working against God. It was sheer hypocrisy and blatant rebellion against God, coming from the religious leaders, of all people. This is what God will judge, and Jesus was letting them know that.
“I thought being angry was bad and a sin.” It can be, but not necessarily. In Ephesians 4.26, Paul writes, “In your anger do not sin.” So it’s possible to be angry and not sin; Paul warns us against the anger that is sin. Anger is mostly a self-centered spark, wanting things to go your way, for your convenience, and your comfort. Anything that imposes on you gets blasted with anger. instead, you have to yield your rights to God. Dedicate all that you are and have (opinions, will, values, time, privacy, money, knowledge, future, health, reputation, activities) to the Lord. Ask God to redirect your will, refocus your emotions, and transform your thoughts. If you are dedicated to God, your expressions of anger aren’t just wounded pride, but expressions of God’s holiness.Sarah Sumner says, "Sinful anger doesn’t trust God, while godly anger does. Sinful anger is prideful, while godly anger flows from humility. Sinful anger participates in evil, while godly anger abhors evil. But the main difference is that godly anger is loving. It’s not about feeling self-righteous." Think about gasoline. Pour a pool of gas on the ground and light a match, and you have an uncontrolled burst and a raging fire. But put the same gas in an engine, and apply the right spark at the right time, and the engine springs to life and accomplishes good. The anger in you gives you great power, but uncontrolled, it will destroy you.
“God’s love is different from our love, right?” In ways yes, in ways no. Our love is like God’s, but His is more pure and always righteous. Our love gets mixed in with selfishness, but God’s doesn’t. Our love is sometimes compromising, but God’s isn’t.
“How does God love everyone the same?” I’m not sure He does. There are verses like Romans 9.13 that show us that, though God loves every individual (Jn. 3.16), His love for people can be different. He loves us all so much He wants us all to be saved (Rom. 5.8), but those who come to Him are particular objects of His affection (Heb. 12.6; Rev. 1.5).
“What happens to people who walk away from the faith for good?” Great question. I believe that once a person is truly saved, they will always be saved. They are eternally secure. They may stray, and have periods of rebellion, but they will return to the Lord and be saved, because they were always His. But there are also plenty of people out there who are not really followers of God (Mt. 7.21-23). These and those like them (Mt. 13.20-22) are not really saved, and if they fall away, they lose the salvation they never really had in the first place. Look at 2 Tim. 2.11-13. The faithless will be restored, but those who disown Christ will be disowned. And those who leave have an extra difficult time returning (Heb. 6.4-6). God will not accept those into heaven who have rebelled against Him and disowned Him; those who reject God will be rejected by Him. A person’s salvation is not "fire insurance,” where once they have made a decision for God they can do whatever they wish, blaspheme God, disown Him, sin like mad, and still expect to stroll into heaven with people cheering them on. No way. Blasphemy like that is unforgivable (Mt. 12.31). But those who struggle, who have periods of faithlessness, who sin—as long as they are still children of the Father—will by no means be cast out, but God will bring them to Himself (Phil. 1.6). It’s one thing to struggle, another thing to renounce.
Feel free to ask as many questions as you have.
“Is it OK for someone to be mad at God?” I would say yes, but I would also guess that some Christians might disagree with me. I think we have good evidence that there were times David was mad at God (Ps. 10; Ps. 22.1-2; Ps. 74). Habakkuk seems pretty angry at God (Hab. 1.2-4, 12-17). I know that when I was going through my very difficult time, I was extremely angry at God, and I told him so, many times. But I look at it this way: He knows what I’m thinking anyway; I might at well say it. It’s not like if I keep it to myself He doesn’t know about it. I want to be honest in my relationship with God, and when I’m angry, there’s no reason to hide it.
“How does one get past that?” I just be honest with God, and I keep seeking Him. Eventually I had moments of insight where I came to resolution and understanding about things, but it took a long time. Despite my anger, I didn’t turn away from Him, but kept seeking and trying to learn. God honored that, and gave me understanding (after several years; it’s not like it was fast or easy).
“What does God do during that time? Wait?” For some of it He let me suffer even more, which made me even more angry. For some of it He taught me things. He let me struggle through it; He didn’t just pop answers on me. It was a real struggle. But the growth came from the struggle, not from easy and fast answers. I only learned deeply because I sought deeply and was challenged deeply.
“Does God get mad ever? God has wrath that is described as anger, but His wrath is an expression of his holiness against sin, not an emotional response to personal hurt. Even though sometimes the Bible uses the word anger in describing God, it’s very different from our notions of anger. God gets angry when sin is destroying what is good and interfering with what should happen in society and in people’s heart.
“What is righteous anger?” Jesus’ action of turning over the tables of the moneychangers is usually described as righteous anger. It’s anger that isn’t an emotional reflex but an action of a righteous God against that which is unholy. Jesus was taking action against the desecration of the Temple. He was acting prophetically, that God is judging the false religion that Judaism had turned into, that He was symbolically purging the people of their sin, and acting to restore and redeem His people. These will all find their fulfillment at the cross.
Another text where it is said Jesus was angry is Mark 3.5. You’ll notice he was angry because their hearts were so spiritually hard: “He was deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts.” Anyone should be angry when he is trying to do something noble, right, and healing, and he just gets condemned for it by religious people. He was angry because they were not only insensitive to the purposes of God, but working against God. It was sheer hypocrisy and blatant rebellion against God, coming from the religious leaders, of all people. This is what God will judge, and Jesus was letting them know that.
“I thought being angry was bad and a sin.” It can be, but not necessarily. In Ephesians 4.26, Paul writes, “In your anger do not sin.” So it’s possible to be angry and not sin; Paul warns us against the anger that is sin. Anger is mostly a self-centered spark, wanting things to go your way, for your convenience, and your comfort. Anything that imposes on you gets blasted with anger. instead, you have to yield your rights to God. Dedicate all that you are and have (opinions, will, values, time, privacy, money, knowledge, future, health, reputation, activities) to the Lord. Ask God to redirect your will, refocus your emotions, and transform your thoughts. If you are dedicated to God, your expressions of anger aren’t just wounded pride, but expressions of God’s holiness.Sarah Sumner says, "Sinful anger doesn’t trust God, while godly anger does. Sinful anger is prideful, while godly anger flows from humility. Sinful anger participates in evil, while godly anger abhors evil. But the main difference is that godly anger is loving. It’s not about feeling self-righteous." Think about gasoline. Pour a pool of gas on the ground and light a match, and you have an uncontrolled burst and a raging fire. But put the same gas in an engine, and apply the right spark at the right time, and the engine springs to life and accomplishes good. The anger in you gives you great power, but uncontrolled, it will destroy you.
“God’s love is different from our love, right?” In ways yes, in ways no. Our love is like God’s, but His is more pure and always righteous. Our love gets mixed in with selfishness, but God’s doesn’t. Our love is sometimes compromising, but God’s isn’t.
“How does God love everyone the same?” I’m not sure He does. There are verses like Romans 9.13 that show us that, though God loves every individual (Jn. 3.16), His love for people can be different. He loves us all so much He wants us all to be saved (Rom. 5.8), but those who come to Him are particular objects of His affection (Heb. 12.6; Rev. 1.5).
“What happens to people who walk away from the faith for good?” Great question. I believe that once a person is truly saved, they will always be saved. They are eternally secure. They may stray, and have periods of rebellion, but they will return to the Lord and be saved, because they were always His. But there are also plenty of people out there who are not really followers of God (Mt. 7.21-23). These and those like them (Mt. 13.20-22) are not really saved, and if they fall away, they lose the salvation they never really had in the first place. Look at 2 Tim. 2.11-13. The faithless will be restored, but those who disown Christ will be disowned. And those who leave have an extra difficult time returning (Heb. 6.4-6). God will not accept those into heaven who have rebelled against Him and disowned Him; those who reject God will be rejected by Him. A person’s salvation is not "fire insurance,” where once they have made a decision for God they can do whatever they wish, blaspheme God, disown Him, sin like mad, and still expect to stroll into heaven with people cheering them on. No way. Blasphemy like that is unforgivable (Mt. 12.31). But those who struggle, who have periods of faithlessness, who sin—as long as they are still children of the Father—will by no means be cast out, but God will bring them to Himself (Phil. 1.6). It’s one thing to struggle, another thing to renounce.
Feel free to ask as many questions as you have.
- jimwalton
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9104
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm
Re: Why should I stick with my faith?
by Nic J » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:53 am
So I just tell God I am mad at him ? I mean I know he already knows. It's just weird .
Why would christians disagree with it's ok to be mad at God ?
When God is mad at us do we know ? Does he get mad at us ? Is that asking the same question again ?
So God doesn't love the people who don't follow him ? If God knew the people that he created werent going to follow him .. why did he create them in the first place ? Does go back to free will ?
So people Can lose their salavation ?
Why would christians disagree with it's ok to be mad at God ?
When God is mad at us do we know ? Does he get mad at us ? Is that asking the same question again ?
So God doesn't love the people who don't follow him ? If God knew the people that he created werent going to follow him .. why did he create them in the first place ? Does go back to free will ?
So people Can lose their salavation ?
- Nic J
Re: Why should I stick with my faith?
by jimwalton » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:22 am
Yes, just be honest with God. If you’re feeling blessed, say so. If you’re ripping angry, say so. As we both agree, He knows what you are feeling and thinking anyway. In the Bible, I’m not aware of any text where someone gets rebuked for expressing their anger to God. As I said, during my desperate days, sometimes I screamed at God, I was SO BLOODY ANGRY.
“Why would Christians disagree that it’s OK to be mad at God?” Some Christians feel our anger at God shows a lack of faith. But the way I look at it, my anger at God shows my faith. I believe in Him, believe that He loves me, believe that He listens, and believe that He cares. That’s why I pray. I can feel free to be honest with Him because I do believe in Him and in all those things. If I didn’t have faith, I wouldn’t bother; I would just walk away. Instead I’m going to hang in there, express my anger, and work it out with Him, just as I would with any relationship. If I’m committed to the relationship, I’m going to work it out. If I’m not, that’s when I walk. But still some Christians see it differently. Oh well.
“When God is mad at us, do we know?” Sometimes yes, sometimes no. When I do something wrong and my life gets all messed up, I can pretty well figure that God is disciplining me (Heb. 12.4-11). But I also have to remember that sometimes life just stinks on its own, and sometimes it’s because Satan is ruining things. So I can’t just automatically assume God is doing it. Remember as I said before, God doesn’t cause everything to happen that happens. Satan is alive and well, and life has been ruined by sin, so sometimes they are the cause of it. God doesn’t control those things.
“So God doesn’t love the people who don’t follow him?” Yes, he does. John 3.16 and Romans 5.8 are very clear about that. God loves everyone. But I’m not convinced He loves everyone the SAME. When people respond to Him in faith and love, I believe God treats them differently, and now loves them as His own. It’s different.
“If God knew the people He created weren’t going to follow him, why did he create them in the first place?” Watchman Nee (an Asian writer from the 1970s) once said that God created us because He wanted more children. He gave Scriptures to back that up, and I agree with Him. You are right when you say free will is part of this picture: God is not willing for any to perish, and so He draws all people to Himself, and people always have a free will to respond. He created them to come to Him.
“So people can lose their salvation?” Eternal security is a tricky doctrine. I believe in eternal security (once saved, always saved). I believe that a person cannot LOSE their salvation, but I believe they can renounce it. Someone who sins doesn’t lose it; someone who strays doesn’t lose it; someone in a period of rebellion doesn’t lose it. You can’t lose your salvation. But it seems that it’s possible to give it away, to disown God, and to renounce the faith. God will not drag people into heaven against their will. If people disown God, He will disown them (2 Tim. 2.12). Only those who persist to the end will be saved.
“Why would Christians disagree that it’s OK to be mad at God?” Some Christians feel our anger at God shows a lack of faith. But the way I look at it, my anger at God shows my faith. I believe in Him, believe that He loves me, believe that He listens, and believe that He cares. That’s why I pray. I can feel free to be honest with Him because I do believe in Him and in all those things. If I didn’t have faith, I wouldn’t bother; I would just walk away. Instead I’m going to hang in there, express my anger, and work it out with Him, just as I would with any relationship. If I’m committed to the relationship, I’m going to work it out. If I’m not, that’s when I walk. But still some Christians see it differently. Oh well.
“When God is mad at us, do we know?” Sometimes yes, sometimes no. When I do something wrong and my life gets all messed up, I can pretty well figure that God is disciplining me (Heb. 12.4-11). But I also have to remember that sometimes life just stinks on its own, and sometimes it’s because Satan is ruining things. So I can’t just automatically assume God is doing it. Remember as I said before, God doesn’t cause everything to happen that happens. Satan is alive and well, and life has been ruined by sin, so sometimes they are the cause of it. God doesn’t control those things.
“So God doesn’t love the people who don’t follow him?” Yes, he does. John 3.16 and Romans 5.8 are very clear about that. God loves everyone. But I’m not convinced He loves everyone the SAME. When people respond to Him in faith and love, I believe God treats them differently, and now loves them as His own. It’s different.
“If God knew the people He created weren’t going to follow him, why did he create them in the first place?” Watchman Nee (an Asian writer from the 1970s) once said that God created us because He wanted more children. He gave Scriptures to back that up, and I agree with Him. You are right when you say free will is part of this picture: God is not willing for any to perish, and so He draws all people to Himself, and people always have a free will to respond. He created them to come to Him.
“So people can lose their salvation?” Eternal security is a tricky doctrine. I believe in eternal security (once saved, always saved). I believe that a person cannot LOSE their salvation, but I believe they can renounce it. Someone who sins doesn’t lose it; someone who strays doesn’t lose it; someone in a period of rebellion doesn’t lose it. You can’t lose your salvation. But it seems that it’s possible to give it away, to disown God, and to renounce the faith. God will not drag people into heaven against their will. If people disown God, He will disown them (2 Tim. 2.12). Only those who persist to the end will be saved.
- jimwalton
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9104
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm
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