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[Newbie]

Romans 1:19-20 unambiguously insists that the Earth and the human species are of the same age.

"19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Romans 1)"

People had to exist since the creation of the world in order to be without excuse since the creation of the world. So, according to Jesus, people have existed since the creation of the world.

And Jesus agrees: “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ (Mark 10:6)

[jimwalton]

Sorry. Can't agree. Since the creation, for sure, the qualities of God have been displayed since he created, for creation is a manifestation of his glory. But that's the point and what Paul is saying: the glory of God has always been clearly noticeable in the created world, not that there was always a person there to see it. Even by a strict, 6-day creation young earth position, Adam wasn't created until the 6th day, and it could be argued (ridiculously) that he wasn't around for days 1-5. I say "ridiculous" because that's not what the text is about, it's not what it's saying, that's not Paul's point, and it's twisting it to try to force it into that deformity. The point of Romans 1.20 is that creation provides a window through which God's glory can be clearly seen.

As far as Mark 10.6, it's the same thing. Jesus is obviously referring back to Genesis 1.27 and 2.24, not to Gen. 1.1. Jesus' point is to trace beyond Dt. 24.1 to the state described in Gn. 1.27 when "God made them male and female." He is talking about God's purpose in creation, not the timing of creation.

[The King]

"Even by a strict, 6-day creation young earth position, Adam wasn't created until the 6th day"

<sigh>

And on the seventh day he rested. From creating. Which means humans were included in the creation period. Perhaps you would like to argue that the Christian god never rested and that creation is ongoing despite what Genesis says?

Or I suppose God resting from creation was just some sort of metaphor that meant nothing like, "God rested from creating".

Please enlighten me. What does this metaphor mean Or is it one of God's eternal mysteries?

[jimwalton]

In the ancient world, when the gods came to inhabit the temple that had been created (on the 7th day of the dedication ceremony), the language used is that they "rested." By it the ancients meant that the gods were now dwelling with the people, engaging the world and the environment, and functioning as the sovereign (Ps. 132.14). It is not a disengagement or leisure, but engagement.

In Genesis, God is the creator of his own temple (the cosmos). He orders it to carry out its intended role and function. It's a temple text, similar to that in 1 Ki. 8, with a 7-day dedication. God sets up the cosmos to function as his temple: heaven is his throne, earth is his footstool, the people are priests and priestesses, and on the 7th day he takes up residence in his "temple" to engage the world and function as its sovereign. The same thought is expressed in Isa. 66.1.

[The King]

Please explain that to the author of Hebrews.

Hebrews 4

A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God

1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[a] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’” And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

[jimwalton]

Thank you for bringing that up. I'd be glad to explain it. The "rest" of God after creation was an Ancient Near East means of expressing that God came to inhabit his creation. It doesn't mean he ceased activity, but that now he came to dwell in its completion. If we transfer that thought to this chapter (Heb. 4.1-5), entering God’s "rest" means that we will inhabit the place where God is, that we will come to dwell with him in our completion, and engage him in that place.

When the Israelites entered Canaan, it wasn't to kick back and put their feet up. They had come to live in God's Promised Land, engage it, and fulfill their purpose, role, and function there. All the work was still in front of them.

Jesus taught the same thing in the "Parable of the Minas" in Luke 19.11-40, a parable of the kingdom. Notice that the people rewarded in heaven are given "charge of ten cities," or "charge of five cities." The "rest" of heaven is not the foolish caricature of sitting on clouds playing harps, but of living in our completion in God's presence, engaging him there, and fulfilling our role and function and purpose. The highest reward for serving is ruling; the reward of heaven is not leisure, but the opportunity for wider service. Heaven is not a place of inactivity, but of calling to a greater work. It's what the Bible calls "rest." It's consistent from Genesis to Jesus to the book of Hebrews.

[The King]

"The "rest" of God after creation was an Ancient Near East means of expressing that God came to inhabit his creation."

That is not what Hebrews 4 says.

3 "And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”

"The "rest" of heaven is not the foolish caricature of sitting on clouds playing harps,"

I never argued this. The "rest" of heaven for God is the period following the end of all of his creative work.

[jimwalton]

> I never argued this.

I know you didn't. A lot of people have that impression, though, so I was throwing it in as a freebie, in case others are reading this thread.

> That is not what Hebrews 4 says.

I agree that the "rest" of heaven for God is the period following the end of all his creative work. No debate there. But what I'm telling you is that the ancient culture as well as the Bible itself define "rest" as indwelling and engagement, not leisure and disengagement. Look at the context of Heb. 4. The "rest" of chapter 3 is when the people of Israel entered the Promised Land of Canaan (Heb. 3.11, 19). Their "rest" is dwelling in the land, entering into the next phase of their relationship with God (3.12-14), hearing and obeying instead of hearing and rebelling (3.16-18). The "rest" of chapter 4, then, is hearing the word of Truth and obeying it instead of rebelling against it (4.1-2, 6ff.). "Rest" is inhabiting a relationship with God, engaging him, obeying him, and exercising good stewardship (4.13), as I said before. Of course on the 7th day, God concluded his work of ordering and assigning function. That task was complete. But when he "rested," he came to dwell in his "temple" (2 Chr. 7.1-2, where the same thing happened at the dedication of Solomon's temple), to live in the midst of his people and be their sovereign (Ps. 132.14 and Isa. 66.1).