Board index ‹ Creation and Evolution

[jimwalton]

I disagree with Craig on that point. I subscribe to the position outlined by Dr. John Walton, professor of OT at Wheaton Graduate School, that Genesis 1 is a temple text: It's theo-historical (giving a theological interpretation of a historical occurrence). It actually happened; it's not mythological. Adam and Eve existed. They disobeyed God in space and time, on a specific day in history, in response to a deceitful conversation. But what Genesis is telling us is that God literally ordered the cosmos to function ("and it was good"), that what God created has a role and function given by Him (a theological point, but it literally happened), that humans were literally given the function of being God's priest and priestess on the Earth to rule and subdue it and to live in literal relationship with Him, that the disruption that sin literally brought to the world was not God's doing, and that God instituted the covenant so that humans could be in relationship with Him (a theological point but literally true).

[Mother of all]

I have to respect the amount of effort and study you’ve put into your view, even if we disagree on which model is correct. Thank you taking the time to answer so deeply. Even if our views differ, I can tell the Holy Spirit is within you simply based on how much you’ve gone into explaining your view of Creation.

[Icthys]

I’ve read a bunch of Walton and agree with his view. I frequently suggest The Lost World of Genesis One to people thinking through this topic.

It’s worth looking into what Craig means by that term. He’s not claiming that Genesis is pure mythology, but he’s not claiming that it’s pure history either. Rather, he holds that it’s describing historic events with epic, mythical language and structures. I think this idea fits nicely with what Walton teaches about Genesis, but I would be interested in hearing him speak on that directly.

[krupski]

Universe is Billions of years old. How, then are we to believe that the Universe was created within just Six Days, as Exodus explicitly states?

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 20:11 ESV

I believe that a lot of the content of the Bible contains general information, parables and things described by those who may not even have had the proper words to describe the events, not literal meaning.

Bear with me here... for example, the moon orbits the earth and the earth rotates faster than the moon's orbital speed. Therefore, due to the gravitational interaction of the earth and moon (aside from causing the tides), the earth "drags" the moon in it's orbit. This makes the moon's orbital speed slowly increase and it's distance from the earth also increase by about 1.5 inches per year. This also increases the time it takes for the moon to orbit the earth and increases the length of our days.

This transfer of energy from the earth to the moon slows down the earth's rotation rate, causing our days to gradually, minutely, get longer. After about 50 billion years, the earth will rotate more slowly and the moon will be far enough away to be in a synchronous orbit around the earth (i.e. it will stay in the same spot in the sky forever). (Actually, it will trace a small figure-8 in the sky, but describing why is beyond the scope of this post).

My point is, when the Bible says "6 days", does that mean 6 periods of probably 12 to 18 hour days of the past, or the current 24 hour days?

Or, more believably, 6 separate periods of "creation work" done by God. Or, possibly 6 "milestone events" during the course of Creation (read below).

Now, here's my theory... don't laugh, but possibly Creation was nothing more than God creating hydrogen and the laws of physics (that is, He defined how matter would act, gravity, etc). Now, He sits back, grabs some popcorn and watchs hydrogen forming into vast clouds due to gravity, the clouds eventually getting large enough, dense enough and hot enough to form stars. Then, the stars go nova, creating all the elements on the periodic table. Also, planets form from those elements and gravity.

On some planets, matter randomly forms a self replicating, living organism. Over the course of time, these organisms slowly mutate. The mutations which improve the organism's hardiness and ability to grow, reproduce and live on. The detrimental mutations die off.

Over the eons, these organisms improve, become sentient, self aware life that finally looks up into the sky in awe and wonders "where did I come from?" .

And, all God had to do is create hydrogen and a few laws of nature. He sat back and watched the show. Maybe, He even said "let there be light" as the very first star ignited and He smiled.

Think about it. My theory REQUIRES both Creation AND Evolution.

Of course, this means we are not alone. Statistically, out of the whole Universe with it's countless galaxies, stars and planets, it is impossible that we humans are "it".

What about His Son the Lord Jesus Christ? Simple, There were also countless Jesus Christs sent to save all the sinners throughout the universe, each one appearing to look like the particular life form involved. Why not? To say otherwise dares to put limits on what God and Jesus can do. If God wanted 100 bazillion Jesus Christs, certainly He could do it.

OK, stop laughing at me. I think it's a good theory, and it all fits a lot better than misunderstood parables and description of events written in the Bible.

[jimwalton]

Krupski, thanks for your post. I'm not laughing at all, but reading with great interest.

I don't want to just blurt out an answer without thinking, because that's disrespectful. I'm taking the time to let your theory sink in.

I guess my main objection off the top of my head is that the text could never mean what the writer never meant it to mean, and your theory takes on that distinctive air. My second observation is that your theory sounds an awful lot like deism. So let me explain.

The ancients didn't know anything about the physics that you're describing in the moon's orbital speed and its gravitation pull on the Earth. It was not in their wheelhouse or their science, so they could not have been writing about it as you are describing. For that matter, the ancients didn't even perceive the moon as the big rock we know it to be, nor even green cheese. Their perception of the moon was that it was a moving light in the firmament.

Secondly, I don't think they were doing the regressive calculations necessary to project that at such an earlier time (presumably billions of years) the days were only 12-18 hours long. To me this could not have possibly been their meaning.

As to your imaginative vision of God creating hydrogen and the laws of physics and then sitting back to watch it play out, that seems to me a deistic idea where God wound it all up like a clock, sat back and watched, and hasn't been involved since then. For me that goes against Hebrew 1.3 which portrays God as actively (daily, perhaps continually) sustaining the universe and its mechanisms, as well as against the entire teaching of Scripture that shows God is intimately involved in the historical flow (Dan. 2.21) as well as in people's lives.

To me, if you have read the thread, which I'll assume, the concern of the ancient writers was about functionality and roles, not about material manufacture. Your theory is still based on the idea that Gn. 1 is talking to us about how God manufactured the universe and the Earth, but if it's about how God ordered what was there to function in a certain way, then he's not talking about the length of days, the laws of physics, or even the processes (instantaneous, evolutionary, or milestone events).

To be clear, I'm not against evolution. In fact, I believe that evolution was the mechanism that God used to create. The time it took is unknown because it is still going on. But it makes more sense to me that God is telling us not the "how" (material manufacture), but rather the "why" (how the universe and Earth were to function to bring God glory and to provide a place for humans to interact with Him as He revealed Himself).

We can certainly keep discussing it. I'm glad you took the time to write.