Board index ‹ The Problem of Evil and Suffering

[Newbie]

THIS IS A QUESTION I AM SURE YOU WERE ASKED BEFORE BUT I NEED A BETTER ANSWER. WHY DO BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE AND ALSO WHY BAD PEOPLE GET AWAY WITH SO MUCH?

[jimwalton]

I'll answer it as clearly as I can, but if I say something you don't understand, or if you want to talk about any of it, just write back.

Why do bad things happen to good people? We have this idea that God should interfere and stop bad things from happening to good people. After all, we think, they're good people, and they should get protection to some extent. Let's play this through. If God is going to stop bad things from happening to you, he has to control your environment so that the baseball coming towards you veers off course, the bottle of milk you drop goes crooked as it falls to the floor so it doesn't hit your foot, and the guy about to miss a red light gets his car stopped anyway. Wait, so he needs not only to control your environment (you never lose electric power, tornadoes are sent off course, it doesn't snow too much), but he also needs to control other people so they don't do anything to hurt you. Oh, and also he needs to take control of your body so you don't whack your leg on the corner of the table while walking past, stub your toe on that raised piece of sidewalk, or walk into that half-open door. Aw, gee, so God has to take control of the weather, our whole environments, other people's bodies, and our bodies if he's going to stop bad things from happening. It's starting to sound like I'm not much of a person anymore, but just a robot.

But we have to take it further. People say things that hurt us, and so he has to control their minds and their tongues. People use body language that hurts us, so he has to take control of everything they think, say, and do. And sometimes people say innocent things and we take it wrongly and feel hurt, so he has to take control of our minds. Well, for sure we're not human any more now. If God is going to make sure nothing bad happens to me, I become a robotic nothing. I don't think for myself, I don't speak for myself, and I don't act on my own. Guess what? I'm not ME any more, and I'm not even human any more.

So I can't love anymore, because if i tell somebody I love them, they'll know I didn't mean it because God made me say it. But their feelings can't be hurt by it, so God has to make it so they don't care. It's all getting quite ridiculous. There is no love, no joy in life, no happiness of any kind, no forgiveness, or anything. There isn't even any goodness, because I'm just being made to do everything. All that's left is just stupidness.

No, instead God gives us a free will. It's the only way we can be human. I get to choose where I walk, what I say, how I think, and I can choose to love. It's what makes me human, and if God interferes with that, then the whole system gets stupid. So I have to face the reality that if people are truly free, then they get to honestly choose how they're going to think and act, and some (a lot?) choose what isn't the best choice. But God really can't interfere, or (1) they stop being human, and (2) the whole system goes down. So God has to stand down and let me choose. He does what he can do without interfering with our free will: he left written instructions to help me make good and godly decisions, he puts people in our lives to help us along the way, and he works through our thoughts and consciences to guide us. But since there isn't anything he can force us to do, he really can't make it so that bad things don't happen to good people. Despite that it sounds like a most excellent idea on paper, in reality it would be a disaster.

A world containing free creatures, who can do both good and evil things, and who do more good than evil, is ultimately more valuable than a world of human robots where everything is set in stone. Since God made us free, we can know what love and happiness are. But that means we're truly free, and can also choose the bad and the wrong. The only way He can get rid of all evil is to get rid of all good too.

Another way of saying it is like this:
1. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and completely good
2. God created persons who are truly free.
3. Free persons can freely choose do do what he or she chooses to do, whether good or bad.
4. The decisions of a free person are no reflection on the loving God who made them, since they made their choice freely.
5. Therefore, the world God created is populated with free persons who are capable of morally evil actions as well as morally good ones.

The other question you asked is "Why do bad people get away with so much?" The answer to that follows the first: God made us to have free will, and he pleads with us to choose what is good and what is right. He teaches us to choose what is good and what is right. But when a bad person chooses the bad, God doesn't step in and stop it. If He did, we'd expect Him to do that every time. And if He stepped in every time, eventually we'd cease being human, as explained before. What the Bible says, though, is what God CAN do is, after bad people get away with what they did, by their own free will (and sometimes with our help), God works to redeem it (fix it, in a sense)—to buy it back, to take the bad situation and make something good out of it. God couldn't stop Adam and Eve from sinning in the Garden of Eden, but after they did, he took several deliberate steps to redeem it. You see this at every turn in the Bible: when people mess up and do things that are wrong, God steps in to redeem it. The ultimate time God did this was sending Jesus, to redeem the sins of the world so that anyone who chose to believe in him (free will again) could be forgiven and have new life.

If I haven't explained something well, just ask more about it. I'm willing to talk to you about it more or explain something further if it isn't clear. And, of course, if you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

[DONNA]

HI, YOURS WAS A LENGTHY ANSWER. I WAS THINKING ALONG THE LINES OF SOMEONE WHO LOVE THE LORD, PRAISE HIM DAILY, ALWAYS HELPS OTHERS, HAS BIBLE STUDIES IN HER HOME, DOES ALL GOOD THINGS, LIKE AN ANGEL HERE ON EARTH BUT HER HEALTH FAILS MANY TIMES AND SHE CAN NOT CARRY ON. MAYBE MY QUESTION SHOULD HAVE BEEN, HOW FAIR IS THIS? IT WOULD SEEM, THE ONES WHO LOVE THE LORD LIKE THIS SHOULD AT LEAST HAVE GOOD HEALTH IN ORDER TO DO IT. WHY SHOULD HE INTERFERE? BECAUSE HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN. OTHERWISE, WHY DO WE EVEN PRAY AND ASK HIM TO INTERCEDE? I KNOW THERE ARE NATURAL CONSEQUENCE TO BAD BEHAVIOR BUT WHEN THE BEHAVIOR CHOICE IS EXTREMELY GOOD AND FAITHFUL YOU WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE A GOOD SHOWING TO OTHERS HOW GOOD THE LORD IS WHEN WE TAKE THE RIGHT PATH. THIS WOULD ALSO LEAD PEOPLE TO THE LORD. I HAVE HEARD THAT GOD ONLY GIVES US WHAT WE CAN HANDLE. I DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT CAME FROM BUT IF THAT WAS TRUE THERE WOULD BE NO SUICIDE. SO, ONE QUESTION LEADS TO MANY OTHERS. IT IS ALL A MYSTERY. SEEMS LIKE BLIND FAITH IS THE BEST BUT SOMEHOW I THINK GOD WANTS US TO ASK QUESTIONS AND USE OUR BRAINS (MAYBE IN ORDER NOT TO FOLLOW FALSE PROPHETS)

[jimwalton]

Donna, I agree that God wants us to ask questions and to use our brains. He never asks us to shut our brains off when we turn to Him. In answer to your question, the first thing that comes to mind is that God never promised us good health. There is no promise in Scripture that if you're a righteous person God will protect you from illness. 1 Corinthians 15.42-43 admits that our bodies are perishable and weak. 2 Corinthians 1.4-5 and James 1.2 (among other texts) say that suffering and physical problems can be expected. Maybe the best place to get an answer to your question is right there in the beginning of 2 Corinthians. Paul says (2 Cor. 1.9) that God uses our physical problems and our trouble in life to teach us to rely on Him instead of ourselves. He allows much suffering so that we set our hope on him (v. 10). Paul is not shy about talking about how stinking hard life is. You may be thinking, "What's the sense of following God if life doesn't get easier because of it, if our lives are just as miserable as everyone else's?" It's because life is about God's will and God's kingdom, not being healthy. Our bodies are always going to be vulnerable; God doesn't promise to change that for the righteous. In this text, Paul said it got so bad he thought they were going to die, so he's in pretty bad shape. But what fascinates me about Paul, and makes me want to probe deeper, is that none of this seems to make him miserable or shakes his faith. He doesn't necessarily expect to be healthy and well. What he tells us is that pain and suffering are redeemed by God. God doesn't make it go away specifically because He makes good things come out of it. (Notice I didn't say anything about God giving us suffering because he has a purpose in it. LIFE gives us suffering, but God takes it and does something productive with it.)

Paul knows that pain forces us, like no other force in all of life, to seek meaning and purpose, to work things out, and to struggle and learn perseverance and strength. He knows that pain forces us, like nothing else, to see if God is really there, and to learn what he is really like. And he knows that no matter what the outcome, since God often does NOT intervene in our circumstances, what makes me know that God is real is not what he does for ME, and not how he manipulates MY circumstances to make me a happy camper, but that Jesus rose from the dead, and whoever rises out of his own coffin gets my vote. He's the one who has proven himself divine, and all other comers are just wanna-be's, and that's what Paul hangs his hat on. In God, Paul finds peace, hope, faith, and reality in prayer. But it's not prayer of "God, change my circumstances." It's prayer of "Father of compassion and God of all comfort." It's the God inside—indwelling—that is so real for him. What Paul has found is the pearl of priceless price, and it's not physical health. It's God's spiritual presence. It says to me that it's possible to find that island in the middle of the storm where the storm doesn't affect you spiritually. Oh, let's not be stupid. He still feels the pain. He still cries and grieves and struggles and gets knocked sideways into the next county, but somehow, it doesn't matter. You know what? I WANT THAT. The resurrection of Jesus changed not only the rules, but the whole game. The resurrection made this state of life possible, and I want it. It's not freedom from physical problems; it's freedom to live in Jesus Christ without being bound to the slavery of sin.

You have heard "God only gives us what we can handle." That's not in the Bible. Even here in 2 Cor. 1.8, Paul says, "We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure." He didn't say God will only give me what I can handle. He said the burden was beyond his power to endure if left to himself. Don't be fooled: Satan is out to RUIN us, absolutely UNDO us, but God is there for us to hang on to in the middle of the crazy storm.

Ask more. I'm still not sure I hit the nail on the head for you. If you have time, you may also want to read some of the other entries in this section of the forum. Some of them are discussions I had with a believer who has suffered for years with chronic, unhealable pain.

But feel free to write back to me as you wish.

[DONNA]

HI JIM, THANK YOU FOR YOUR ANSWER. ALL THOSE THINGS YOU MENTIONED ABOUT GOD BEING BIGGER THAN ANY PAIN WE GO THROUGH AND STILL WE SHOULD PRAISE HIM IS EXACTLY WHAT MY FRIEND DOES AND SAYS OF HER HEALTH. SHE IS THE MOST STEADFAST CHRISTIAN I KNOW. SHE IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE TO OTHERS. I GUESS I AM THE DISCONTENTED ONE WHO DESPERATELY WANTS HER TO BE HEALTHY WHILE DOING GOD'S WORK. FRIENDS CERTAINLY DON'T WANT FRIENDS LIKE HER TO SUFFER. I KNOW I DON'T HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER THAT BUT I DO POUR OUT PRAYERS FOR HER EXPECTING THINGS TO GET BETTER AND WHEN IT DOESN'T, I AM DISAPPOINTED. SOME SCRIPTURE COMES TO MIND, KNOCK AND THE DOOR SHALL OPEN, SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND, PRAISE GOD IN ALL THINGS. THE HURT COMES WHEN ALL THIS IS DONE AND THE CIRCUMSTANCES DON'T GET BETTER. I DON'T LIKE TO THINK THAT I AM A "FAIR WEATHER" FRIEND TO GOD BUT SOMETIMES I ASK HIM, "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?" HERE IS A PERSON WHO IS CHRIST-LIKE, WHICH IS WHAT YOU WANT AND WHAT WE STRIVE TO BE AND SHE IS REPEATEDLY CUT DOWN BY POOR HEALTH. IT'S A MYSTERY. I AM ONLY HUMAN, I DO MY BEST TO UNDERSTAND BUT I FALL SHORT. THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR COMMENTS. I WILL READ THOSE OTHER ENTRIES.

[jimwalton]

Donna, you're so right. God takes that pain that your friend is going through, and deepens her faith by it. She has learned some things about life, faith, and God that those who don't experience her agony ever learn. That's really the point: pain causes us to seek deeper. Keep praying for her. Suffering can be enriching, but it can also make people bitter. We have to keep seeking God.

The "ask and you shall receive" text? We all know that can't possibly mean that God is a big Santa Claus in the sky, and as long as we ask it will be done. What a mess we would make if THAT were the case! To me it makes sense to read Matthew 7.7 as proverbial, not as a guarantee: it’s true, but only in the situations where it is true. For instance, we have proverbs such as “Fools rush in,” and “He who hesitates is lost.” They contradict each other, but they are each true in their certain situations. We have to be discerning to know when it will be true. In that same sense, this proverb is true in the situations where it is true, and not in others. Thus, it is a truism, not a promise. You know what I mean? God isn't Santa Claus, but he does respond to our prayers. It’s generally true, when God does provide for your food and clothes (though there are times when he does not), and when God gives you good gifts (though there are times when such gifts are withheld). Why would Jesus speak this proverb? To let people know that God is not mean or cruel (read verses 8-12), that He does take care of us and provide for us. But it’s not to say that every request gets answered, every need is provided for, and everything sought is found.

We do learn to praise God in all things. And it's alright to be honest with God in prayer and ask, "What are you thinking?" I'm sorry your friend has to suffer so much. Many people suffer a lot, and it hurts us to see our friends that way. The Bible teaches us to visit the sick, care for them, get the best medical care we can, and to pray for each other.