Board index Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages 1 Samuel

1 Samuel 15 and the Amalekites

Postby Axle Paint » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:17 pm

What is the Christian explanation for what happened in 1 Samuel?

God commands the Israelites, led by Saul, to attack Amalek for something they did hundreds of years ago, and gives specific instructions to kill everybody, including children and infants.

1 Samuel 15:3 says "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."


After that, Saul spares the king and "the best" animals.

God gets mad at Samuel for not obeying his command to kill everybody, and tells him that he regrets making Saul the king.
How are these hideous crimes justified?
Axle Paint
 

Re: 1 Samuel 15 and the Amalekites

Postby jimwalton » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:26 pm

Maybe I can just lay it out for you. Maybe that would be the best way to deal with your questions, and then we can go from there.

Saul was rejected by God as king in 1037 BC, 14 yrs after his crowning. This Amalekite incident happened in 1023, another in a string of failures and disobediences for him. The point of the story is not the "genocide" of the Amalekites (which, by the way, didn't happen. The Amalekites were a people group for another 1000 yrs.), but rather the failure of Saul as God's representative on the throne. His disobedience caused his dethroning (and also it was not caused by aggression or revolt on the part of David).

The Amalekites were a people group spread over a large geographic area, mostly as nomadic people, not concentrated in the cities. It simply both impractical and impossible to have wiped out the entire population. It's like saying today, "Let's wipe out ISIS!" We don't even know where they all are. It wasn't intended to be a genocidal effort. The cities were military bases; they were the targets here.

God commands that the Amalekites be punished for their attacks on Israel through the centuries (Ex. 17.8-16; Dt. 25.17-19). Samuel reminds Saul that he is king by God's appointment, not by popular vote. He has to prosecute YHWH's case. The military action isn't for political gain, ethnic cleansing, or land grabbing, but for their sins against Israel. (Israel wasn't aggressing against them at the time of their attack; the Israelites were just passing through their territory. They attacked Israel without provocation.)

Saul was to attack them and "herem" them. This verb has traditionally been translated as "totally destroy," but that has been found to be false. It means "to liberate the land from normal human use," i.e., make it sacred to God—ineligible for human use. Sometimes this was done by clearing the land, sometimes by destruction of things, sometimes by dedication. While it can mean destruction, it doesn't necessarily mean that. In this context it means that if the king is killed and their military outposts are destroyed, if the altars are removed and their idols destroyed, the Amalekites will lose their cultural identity and no longer be a people group, let alone a military threat. So there's no genocide going on here.

The "put everything to death" warfare rhetoric is their way of expressing "win a decisive victory." No one was hacking women and slaughtering babies. Again, mostly the ones who lived in the cities (i.e., fortresses) were soldiers and government officials.

So Saul musters an army in the Negev about 30 miles south of Hebron. The word "thousand" is the same word for "clan." It's unrealistic to think he mustered an army of 200,000 soldiers; it's more likely 200 divisions, and 10 divisions from Judah. He set an ambush in a single ravine near their governmental center (1 Sam. 15.5) from where the king and his court ruled. This was the target of the attack, because it is here they can best strip the Amalekites of their cultural identity. You can't genocide an entire population spread over thousands of square miles from a single ravine.

Saul attacked and won a decisive victory (15.7), as planned, chasing the losers in every direction. He captured the king and took him alive instead of killing him, but they slaughter of the politicians and military personnel in the city. By sparing the king, however, Saul has defeated the entire purpose of herem against a community, which was to destroy their identity as a people. Without killing the king, he may as well have done nothing at all. More severely, however, he has effectively declared independence from his boss, God, by honoring himself in place of the emperor (God) and by taking a vassal of his own (King Agag; see 15.32, where Agag expects to be subjugated rather than executed). This explains Samuel’s odd reference to divination and idols in v. 23.

That he won this victory in one night proves that it was not genocide. There is no way to chase down thousands of Bedouin spread from Sinai to Iraq in one night.

Saul thinks he's awesome (15.13). The land was conquered, spoils were taken, he erected a victory stele, and he prepared to sacrifice to the Lord. The animals, however, were not killed either.

God is once again displeased by Saul's disobedience and rebellion against him. His "regret" is that he can no longer count on Saul or use him to accomplish his purposes.

When Samuel arrives, he finds out Saul has erected a victory stela of his success. The erection of a stele was common, but that it was in Saul's own honor, rather than God's, is disconcerting.

Samuel hears the sheep. These sheep weren't supposed to be for sacrifice, nor were they to be taken as plunder for the benefit of the soldiers (typical warfare behavior—they got food from what they plundered). These animals in this city were supposed to have been killed. Saul made the mistake of thinking sacrifices were more important to God than obedience (15.22). (His mention of "the Lord YOUR God" [15.15] is telling.)

Saul's sins were multiple. He disobeyed, he set himself up as the center of order and wisdom, and he glorified himself.

Suffice it to say, there was no genocide (not the intent), no slaughter of children (warfare rhetoric), no hideous crimes.

With that as background (and the post is getting long), I can either answer your questions next time (just ask), or maybe this brings up new questions.
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Re: 1 Samuel 15 and the Amalekites

Postby Axle Paint » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:56 pm

Why didn't God say "win a decisive victory" instead of commanding to murder everyone, and going all the way to specifically say "infants and sucklings". Why would God use text as the primary source of his message when it can be so wildly interpreted? Thank you for your explanation, but it is dishonest.
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Re: 1 Samuel 15 and the Amalekites

Postby jimwalton » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:12 pm

> Why didn't God say "win a decisive victory" instead of commanding to murder everyone, and going all the way to specifically say "infants and sucklings".

It was the rhetoric of their culture. In a modern football locker room, the coach says, "Let's go out there and kill 'em today." And the team yells, "Kill! Kill! Kill!" Nobody's being killed; that's the rhetoric of our culture for win a decisive victory.

It's not a command to murder everyone. When their rhetoric included "infants and sucklings," that's figurative for how complete the victory would be. The Mernaptah Stele says "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not" (meaning the infants and sucklings were murdered). But that's not what happened. Israel was still around. Their children were not slaughtered. But their army was conquered. That was their warfare rhetoric in the ancient world.

> Why would God use text as the primary source of his message when it can be so wildly interpreted?

The text was written in a particular cultural context, in the language of that day. That's how you communicate with people. With you I am not using the vocabulary and language of 1000 years to our future. It's wouldn't communicate a thing to you. Nor would it work for me to speak in Old English, the language of 600 years ago. You wouldn't understand me. So God communicates in terms, figures of speech, literary images, and rhetoric of the culture He's talking to. There's no problem with that. We just have to be good interpreters and read the text as the author intended it, not as our culture sees it. You would expect the same thing. If someone misinterpreted what you wrote, you'd protest saying, "Hey, that's not what I meant by it. You have to read it for what I meant by it." There's no problem here; it's the nature of communication.

> but it is dishonest.

Not in the least. It's how communication works. It was written to them (1000 BC). Ours is the work of translation and interpretation.

The other day I was reading some of the charter documents of U.S. States. The 1663 charter of Rhode Island reads,

"...that they, pursueing, with peaceable and loyall minces, their sober, serious and religious intentions, of goalie edifieing themselves, and one another, in the holie Christian ffaith and worshipp as they were perswaded...”


What's a "mince?" Are they being dishonest by using a word different from how I use it? I say they are not.

Here's the Lord's Prayer in Old English:

Fæder ure
ðu ðe eart on heofenum
si ðin nama gehalgod
to-becume ðin rice
geweorþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofenum.
Urne ge dæghwamlican hlaf syle us to-deag
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgifaþ urum gyltendum
ane ne gelæde ðu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfle.


Good luck with that one. But it's English. Is it dishonest? That's not even the right question. Language changes, as do figures of speech and rhetoric. There's nothing dishonest about it. We have to be good scholars and good interpreters. There's no getting around that it was written to a different culture in a different time, a different worldview and a different language than we are now. So what? We do the work to be good students.
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Re: 1 Samuel 15 and the Amalekites

Postby Axle Paint » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:02 pm

Why would God use language in the first place? The bible leads to different denominations of Christianity, words have been lost in translation, it has many contradictions. This is the single source from where Christians get their dogma, and yet members from different denominations will give different meanings to the verses. How could an all-knowing god not see this coming?
Axle Paint
 

Re: 1 Samuel 15 and the Amalekites

Postby jimwalton » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:13 pm

> Why would God use language in the first place?

It's God's desire to reveal Himself. Since language is a primary mode of communication, it's an appropriate tool (granted, it's flawed, but every mode of communication is). God's goal in history is to be in relationship with the people He has created. It would be difficult for people to enter into a relationship with a God whom they do not know. if His nature is concealed, distorted, or obscured, an honest relationship with Him would be impossible. Language is a medium not only for communication but also for preservation.

> The bible leads to different denominations of Christianity

It's OK that Christians are thinking people and see things differently. So do historians, scientists, lawyers, and doctors. It's OK. Diversity is a value. But we all agree on the basics that define us as Christians.

> words have been lost in translation

A few. Not enough to matter.

> it has many contradictions

This is worth a conversation if you 'd like to talk more about it.

> This is the single source from where Christians get their dogma, and yet members from different denominations will give different meanings to the verses

Even when someone says hi to me, there are several ways I could take it: (1) they were being polite, (2) they were being friendly, (3) they were hitting on me. Which is it? It's the nature of communication that it must be properly interpreted. of course there are some disagreements, just as their are in the scientific, historical, archaeological, and judicial arenas, but they don't upset the whole apple cart. When two economists disagree with each other, we don't say, "Well that shows that all economics is a crock!" But it seems that's what you're doing with Christianity. It doesn't seem like a fair accusation to me, for one, and, for two, it seems like a double standard.

> How could an all-knowing god not see this coming?

He could, of course. But there's no problem with us being thinking people. Have you and your friend ever gone to see a movie and disagreed about something about it? Does that make you say, since you can foresee the possibility of this repeating itself, "I'm never going to go to a movie with you again!" Of course not. Disagreement is part of how we learn, think, communicate, and figure things out. It's quite OK.
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Re: 1 Samuel 15 and the Amalekites

Postby Mortal Kombat » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:42 pm

Where do you get that the Amalekites were spread out?
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Re: 1 Samuel 15 and the Amalekites

Postby jimwalton » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:48 pm

The Amalekites were a nomadic group spread over a large geographic area. Their territory includes most of what we know as Saudi Arabia today, though not as far south as S.A. goes. Most Amalekites did not live in cities (more than 90% of the ancient populations did NOT live in cities, and the number may have been higher for nomadic groups).
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Re: 1 Samuel 15 and the Amalekites

Postby Goo Goo » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:09 pm

> It would be difficult for people to enter into a relationship with a God whom they do not know

How was it difficult for Saul of Tarsus?

> Diversity is a value. But we all agree on the basics that define us as Christians.

Do Christians agree on what is required for salvation, or what actions are sinful? If someone is mistaken about salvation and sin, that's a problem, isn't it?
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Re: 1 Samuel 15 and the Amalekites

Postby jimwalton » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:09 pm

> How was it difficult for Saul of Tarsus?

We can assume it was the same for S/Paul as for anyone else. He had had exposure to Christianity (and possibly even to Jesus) as he was growing up. He was educated by Gamaliel in Jerusalem, and was on the fast track to becoming part of the Sanhedrin. Since Jesus clashed with the religious establishment, it's easy to assume that Paul would have had some exposure to the teachings of Christianity during his upbringing and education.

He obviously rejected Christianity, though, and for a while became a famous persecutor of Christians, hostile and dangerous.

He witnessed the martyrdom of Stephen and heard his testimony (at least that particular day). Stephen recounted many events from the Tanakh with which S/Paul would have been familiar. His rejection of Christ and Christianity continued as his persecution of the Church intensified.

But God was obviously working on him, so to speak. All this exposure to the truth seemed to be having an internal and spiritual effect on S/Paul, and when Jesus appeared to him on his way to Damascus, he chose to enter into that relationship with the God who had revealed Himself to S/Paul.

> Do Christians agree on what is required for salvation

Mostly. We agree that it's centered in Jesus. Protestants believe it is by the grace of God to which we respond by faith. Catholics believe it is by the grace of God to which we respond by faith, and then in addition our works make it complete.

> Do Christians agree on ... what actions are sinful

Mostly. Even in the days of the New Testament, there were some gray areas (Rom. 14) where interpretation and living by one's conscience are the rule rather than a straight black-and-white. That's still true today.

> If someone is mistaken about salvation and sin, that's a problem, isn't it?

As long as you get the core, you're in good shape.
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