Board index ‹ Salvation

[Slip in the Stream]

Yes I understand that the absence of life is death. I understand why anything else would be logically impossible. But I'm not asking why death is the inevitable consequence of separation from life. I'm asking why somebody's separation from life is the inevitable consequence of your sins. That is not logically necessary.

The inevitable consequences of your sins does not logically have to be that you or someone else must be separated from life. That's absurd. If God didn't want for anybody to be separated from life because you sinned, he could have easily made it so.

If he is being forced to punishing himself for what you did, then he not all-powerful. If he is choosing to unnecessarily punish himself for what you did, then he is an insane masochist.

[jimwalton]

The explanation helps. Let me try to answer your query: Somebody's separation from life is NOT the inevitable consequence of MY sins. MY separation from life is the inevitable consequence of my sin. Jesus is voluntarily stepping in to balance the debt on my behalf, even though he doesn't have to. He is not being forced to, because he could just let justice take its course, and we would all be condemned. But out of love he chooses to step into the picture and do something on our behalf. In that sense I guess you could say he's an insane masochist, but since it's motivated by love, it's more like he's the most intense and committed lover one could ever imagine.

[Shifty Eyes]

He could step in and let no one be punished for your sins. Instead he is voluntarily giving himself the punishment that you deserve. He has three options:

1) Make it so that no one needs to be punished for your sins
2) Make it so that you and you alone need to be punished for your sins
3) Make it so that You or someone other than you needs to be punished for your sins

For some odd reason he went with the third option and opted to take the punishment for your sins upon himself instead of simply making it so that no one needs to be punished for your sins. It really does seem like he just wants to be punished but doesn't want to admit it, so he comes up with shady reasons why his punishment is necessary for our salvation.

[jimwalton]

I'm struggling with how you don't seem to catch the necessity of cause and effect and the nature of justice. It's impossible for there to be no punishment for sin. The necessary effect of separation from life is death. You can't just willy-nilly say that separation from life is more life. That's a self-contradiction. Separation from life is non-life, viz., death. There's no other choice.

Second, the nature of justice is that there are consequences for wrong-doing. To treat wrong-doing the same as right-doing is not justice. There is no other choice under any true conception of justice.

Therefore he's not a cavalier masochist ("he just wants to be punished"), a deceptive masochist ("but doesn't want to admit it") or "[coming] up with shady reasons." There is inevitable and necessary cause and effect, and there is true justice.