Board index ‹ Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages ‹ Jeremiah

[Common Cup]

God seems to be presented as capable of great evil. Jeremiah 19 is an example. Can we talk about it? I find Jeremiah 19 to be an extremely strange chapter to say the least.

I get that the people were doing evil things to their children of their own accord but the response seems wholly at odds with teaching why harming children is bad.

If a judge in today’s court forced a parent to eat the children they were accused of harming the outcry would be global.

If your answer is ‘well it’s not a human judge it’s God’ then it would be better to leave the conversation here for the sake of peace.

[jimwalton]

I am glad to continue the conversation, and especially to discuss Jeremiah 19. Jeremiah was written when ancient Israel had become a failed society. They were murdering their own children, abusing the poor, and making a hypocritical charade of their religion, using God to justify their evil. Their leaders were corrupt beyond imagination and the courts were in the pockets of the wealthy. Jeremiah was written to let the people know that their behavior was beyond the pale and God would be bringing their time of evil to an end. Thankfully He's a just judge and doesn't even give His own people a free pass. There was no favoritism with God. But, as you mentioned, you get this part—at least to some extent. You don't seem to realize how bad it was when you make a comment like "harming children." This was far more than harming children.

You pick on verse 9 presumably as the place to claim that God is capable of great evil, and this is where you are not catching on. God is not forcing them to eat their own children. In the ancient Near East, cannibalism existed only in the most desperate time—during times of famine or siege. (Sort of much like when in our world we hear of plane crash victims eating the dead to survive). What God is saying is that when their enemies come upon them with barbarism (as the Babylonians are known from archaeology to have been like), things will be so bad that they will even eat their own. The people will fall by the sword (Jer. 19.7), the city will be destroyed (v. 8), and the people will be at the worst possible level—where they eat their own to survive. God is not saying He will force them to do this; He is saying that this is what the situation will be. In addition, and as further evidence of my position, "eating the flesh of one's own children" was a typical curse form in Mesopotamia. So the "cannibalism" might not even be literal. Instead, it's a statement of God's great displeasure with what they have become. Lamentations 4.5-10 shows the same interpretation, in the form of irony. Lam. 4.5 says they used to eat delicacies; 4.10 says now they eat their children, due to the famine (4.9). It may have been literal. The point is that God is describing the horror that will come upon them because of their sin, not the evil He will perpetrate against them. The Babylonians will perpetrate the evil of siege, destruction, and murder. The people will suffer the result of that in suffering, famine, destitution, and even cannibalism.

Talk back to me.

[Common Cup]

Are you saying that Gods role in this is to merely comment on what will happen as a result of their sin? Is that me trivialising it too much?

[jimwalton]

There's no "mere" about it. it is Jeremiah's role, not God's, to comment. What God is doing is withdrawing His hand of protection (compare Deuteronomy 23.14 [and many others] with. He's done with Israel and will no longer keep them safe. Now they are vulnerable to whatever forces arise, be it human or natural. It's a severe action of judgment. Very quickly, then, we notice that the Babylonians attack and slaughter the population, deporting some, and breaking down the city walls, destroying crops and animals, and creating the situation described in Jeremiah 19. God's role is not a comment, but that of judgment: I will no longer keep you safe. Jeremiah shows them what will happen as a result of God's causative action: The Israelites don't stand a chance against Babylon without God's protective power and will suffer greatly at their hands.

[Common Cup]

Yes, but clearly God is the cause as he says so himself in vs 7,8 and 9. It is extreme anger. The anger is gods voice in those and other passages in that chapter and that anger is frighteningly palpable.

That is the holy anger and Gods justice against sin. I understand.

You say he causes it by withdrawing his protection so that the evil things will happen to those he has judged. They will be served Gods justice.
There will be evil child sacrifices made by evil people followed by baby eating judgements for those evil child sacrifices followed by God sacrificing his own child for the sin of evil child sacrifices amongst all the many other evil sins every evil creation is guilty of.

If we ask ‘Why are we so evil?’ we are told it’s in our nature.

How is it in our nature?

Well it’s inherited through ‘Adam’

Who made Adam?

Why is it all so broken?

Why is everyone evil?

What in the hell is going on?

Perhaps it’s time to just accept that it’s an old story in a book and no ones ever seen a god. Perhaps we really should just try and be a bit kinder to each other?

[jimwalton]

> Yes, but clearly God is the cause as he says so himself in vs 7,8 and 9.

God didn't make them eat each other. What the text is saying is that it is God who decided that the time of Israel was over because they were a failed society of only corruption and evil. It's reasonable to expect that a good judge would condemn evil where he sees it. The verb in the verse is a hiphil sequential perfect, meaning that God has "caused" the Israel will not continue in their depraved state. It's not an act of evil on God's part. It's an action to restrain evil.

> The anger is gods voice in those and other passages in that chapter and that anger is frighteningly palpable.

Yes, it's supposed to be. We should be afraid that we are fully accountable for any perpetrations of evil we bring about. It doesn't make God evil, it shows the people to be evil.

> There will be evil child sacrifices made by evil people followed by baby eating judgements for those evil child sacrifices followed by God sacrificing his own child for the sin of evil child sacrifices amongst all the many other evil sins every evil creation is guilty of.

Whoa, you snuck in God's sacrificing his own son. That's a very different matter. These people were barbarians; God's action is more like a father running into a burning building to save a loved one. That's not barbarism, it's love.

God wishes to take away this evil. That's why He "sent his son into a burning building." God knows the awful evil that humans are capable of. That's why He enacted a plan to get rid of it.

> Well it’s inherited through ‘Adam’

No, no no no no no no. Evil is not inherited through Adam; death because of sin is. Evil is part of life.

> Who made Adam?

God did. But the manufacturer is not responsible for what people do with it. When someone drives a Ford pickup into a crowd of protestors, is Ford to blame? When someone uses a baseball bat to crush someone else's skull, is Louisville Slugger to blame? Of course not.

> Why is it all so broken?

Because anywhere you have sentient beings with free will, there is potential for breakage. I can craft the finest crystal glass ever made, but if someone drops it, it's going to break. It's the nature of glass. Put a car on the road and there is potential for an accident. It's the nature of driving. There's no other choice. It's not God's fault. We are the breakers.

> Why is everyone evil?

Everyone isn't evil. There are a lot of good people in the world. The Bible never claims that everyone is evil, and neither do I.

> What in the hell is going on?

Too many people make bad choices. I get calls every day about my "car warranty." Who are these thieves? My website gets attacked by about 12K spammers a week. The world is full of crooks, liars, and jerks. But there are a lot of good people, too. The Bible addresses it all reasonably: the nobility of humans juxtaposed with the cruelty of humans. God addresses is by offering the only real solution: change the heart.

> Perhaps it’s time to just accept that it’s an old story in a book and no ones ever seen a god.

Nah, this can't possibly be right. There's too much evidence for the veracity of the Bible. And we have seen a God; His name was Jesus. We can talk about Him if you like, also.

> Perhaps we really should just try and be a bit kinder to each other?

I'm all for this. We should. It's what the Bible teaches: Be kind and forgiving to each other.