Board index ‹ Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages ‹ 2 Peter

[Silk Fiji]

The main evidence for the mythicist position is that Paul only ever indicates two sources of Jesus info, Scripture (the LXX) and dreams. Paul never indicates an earthly Jesus taught anything or that anyone was a disciple.

But as minor evidence, you have 2 Peter. Everyone agrees 2 Peter is a forgery.

But why was it forged?

It was forged to rebut a sect of Christians who taught the Gospels were symbolic fiction.

2 Peter 1:16

"For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty."

[jimwalton]

I observe several flaws in your thinking and your analysis.

> Paul only ever indicates two sources of Jesus info, Scripture (the LXX) and dreams.

First of all, there are times when Paul doesn't make clear how he got his Jesus information. In Galatians 1.12, he says he received information "by revelation." In 1 Corinthians 11.23, he says he received this directly from the Lord. We can't claim these are dreams, because the text doesn't say that. He is claiming a first-hand experience, but we don't know the form or the medium of it.

> Paul never indicates an earthly Jesus taught anything or that anyone was a disciple.

This is inaccurate. In 1 Corinthians 7.10 Paul mentions teachings of Jesus, as he does in 1 Timothy 6.3. Paul also mentions the disciples in 1 Cor. 15.5; Galatians 1.18; 2.9.

> Everyone agrees 2 Peter is a forgery.

Not a forgery, but not Peter as author either. There are some biblical scholars, such as Charles Erdman. L.R. Donelson, & Douglas Moo, who think Peter was the author. There are also some who think Peter wrote it via an eloquent Greek amanuensis. There are also arguments that the author had a direct, first-hand connection to Peter. I agree, just to be honest, that the argument against Peter's authorship is far stronger than the argument for his authorship. It is of note, though, that the early church deemed it to have authority as Scripture, regarding it as the product of Peter's own mind and ministry, and possibly of Peter's own hand.

> It was forged to rebut a sect of Christians who taught the Gospels were symbolic fiction.

Your hypothesis of why is was forged is shaky at best. First of all, what the author means by "cleverly devised tales" could have any number of referents:

- Jewish myths
- rabbinical embellishment of OT history
- heathen myths about the descent of the gods to earth (which might be suggested by Peter's remembrance of the Transfiguration)
- Gnostic speculations about "whatever"

For you to conclude that the author was talking about a sect of Christians who taught the Gospels were symbolic fiction could be a bit of a stretch. What evidence from the context do you have for this hypothesis? Let's talk about it. It's an interesting passage.

[Silk Fiji]

> This is inaccurate. In 1 Corinthians 7.10 Paul mentions teachings of Jesus, as he does in 1 Timothy 6.3. Paul also mentions the disciples in 1 Cor. 15.5; Galatians 1.18; 2.9.

1 Cor. 7.10 are teachings of a dream Jesus.

1 Timothy is a known forgery

1 Cor. 15.5, Galatians 1.18 and Galatians 2.9 don't say Cephas etc. were disciples of Jesus.

[jimwalton]

> 1 Cor. 7.10 are teachings of a dream Jesus.

This is a very odd interpretation. There is nothing at all in the words, the text, or the context that leads us to the conclusion that they are the teachings of a dream Jesus. Paul is dealing with a real world situation (marriage, celibacy, sexual ethics) and is answering specific questions. He gives his teaching on the matters at hand (He is offering his wisdom, and he specifically says "I say" [v. 6], "I wish" [v. 7], "I say" [v. 8]). Then in verse 10 he refers to a teaching of Jesus. Jesus taught on divorce in Mt. 5.31ff.; 19.3-12; Mk. 10.9-12, and Luke 16.18. There is nothing in the text to show or even suggest he is referring to the teachings of a dream Jesus. He speaks often in 1 Corinthians about the historic Jesus.

- 11.23: a man, Jesus, who, during a meal, was betrayed by a close associate.
- 1.23; 2.2; 15.3: a man, Jesus, who was physically crucified
- 15.4: a man, Jesus, who was physically buried
- 6.14; 15.4, 12-15, 20: a man, Jesus, who was physically resurrected

He even specifies in 1 Cor. 7.25 that there is no teaching from the mouth of Jesus about the particular subject at hand. If it were a dream Jesus, he could make up whatever teachings he wished, I presume.

In other words, he is writing of the historical Jesus, not a dream Jesus, and the teachings that came from the mouth of the historical Jesus.

> 1 Timothy is a known forgery

I know there is an active debate about the authorship of Timothy, but you should know it is far from resolved. 1 & 2 Timothy are filled with many of Paul's terms, phrases and style, and could easily have been written by him to good friends towards towards the end of his life. In a recent study of 2 Timothy I discovered that the book is filled with so many "Paulisms," even subtle ones, that if this is another writer, he "out-Pauled" Paul himself. If we consider Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation is probably the true explanation) and if we are inferring the most logical conclusion, we will take Paul to be the writer until convincing proof to the contrary surfaces. Though the debate will rage for many years to come, the evidence is strongly in Paul's favor.

> 1 Cor. 15.5, Galatians 1.18 and Galatians 2.9 don't say Cephas etc. were disciples of Jesus.

Cephas and Peter are the same person. John 1.42 is clear that Cephas is the Peter who was a disciple of Christ. In 1 Corinthians 9.25 specifies Cephas as one of the disciples, mentioned separately because it was well known that Peter was married (Matt. 8.14). The Cephas that Paul mentions in 1 Cor. 15.5 is also Simon, whom Luke mentions in Luke 24.34 as having seen the risen Jesus. Matthew 4.18 and 10.12 specify that Simon was another name for Peter. Therefore the Cephas that Paul mentions was one and the same with Peter, the disciple of Jesus.

[Silk Fiji]

> as he does in 1 Timothy 6.3

1 Timothy is a known forgery

> He quotes the words of Jesus in 1 Cor. 11.24-25

Paul is quoting the words of a dream Jesus. Paul says he received the Last Supper info directly from Jesus himself, which indicates a dream.

1 Cor. 11:23: "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread"

Translations often use "betrayed", but in fact the word paradidomi means simply ‘hand over, deliver’. The notion derives from Isaiah 53.12, which in the Septuagint uses exactly the same word of the servant offered up to atone for everyone’s sins.

Paul is adapting the Passover meal. Exodus 12.7-14 is much of the basis of Paul’s Eucharist account: the element of it all occurring ‘in the night’ (vv. 8, 12, using the same phrase in the Septuagint, en te nukti, that Paul employs), a ritual of ‘remembrance’ securing the performer’s salvation (vv. 13-14), the role of blood and flesh (including the staining of a cross with blood, an ancient door lintel forming a double cross), the breaking of bread, and the death of the firstborn—only Jesus reverses this last element: instead of the ritual saving its performers from the death of their firstborn, the death of God’s firstborn saves its performers from their own death. Jesus is thus imagined here as creating a new Passover ritual to replace the old one, which accomplishes for Christians what the Passover ritual accomplished for the Jews.

There are connections with Psalm 119, where God’s ‘servant’ will remember God and his laws ‘in the night’ (119.49-56) as the wicked abuse him.

The Gospels take Paul's wording and inserts disciples of Jesus.

> It's a meaningless distinction to claim Paul never uses the word "disciple." He was clearly referring to the followers of Jesus in Gal. 1.19; 2.8-9; 1 Cor. 15.5 (when he speaks of "the Twelve,"

Its not about the word disciple. Where does Paul even remotely indicate anyone was a student of Jesus?

> There is nothing at all in the words, the text, or the context of 1 Corinthians that leads us to the conclusion that they are the teachings of a dream Jesus.

We know Paul merely had dreams of Jesus. And in 1 Cor. 15 Paul doesn't distinguish his experience from Cephas etc.

[jimwalton]

> 1 Timothy is a known forgery

So you didn't read what I wrote. I'll paste it here again. There is debate about the authorship of 1 Timothy. It is not a "known forgery."

What I wrote was, "I know there is an active debate about the authorship of Timothy, but you should know it is far from resolved. 1 & 2 Timothy are filled with many of Paul's terms, phrases and style, and could easily have been written by him to good friends towards towards the end of his life. In a recent study of 2 Timothy I discovered that the book is filled with so many "Paulisms," even subtle ones, that if this is another writer, he "out-Pauled" Paul himself. If we consider Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation is probably the true explanation) and if we are inferring the most logical conclusion, we will take Paul to be the writer until convincing proof to the contrary surfaces. Though the debate will rage for many years to come, the evidence is strongly in Paul's favor."

> Paul says he received the Last Supper info directly from Jesus himself, which indicates a dream.

Again you are incorrect, my friend. "Received" and "delivered", in 1 Cor. 11.23, are terms that were used particularly when referring to oral traditions that have been passed on. 1 Cor. 11.2 and 15.3 use the same terminology. Some later rabbis spoke of such "received from Moses." This was not to indicate they had a dream about Moses. What they meant is that the information has been reliably passed by word of mouth, and that the words ultimately went back to Moses himself. What Paul is indicating here is that those disciples who were in the room have passed on from person to person what Jesus said that night. Since Paul had conversations with the original disciples, he was getting his information not from a dream but rather from a disciple.

As far as "betrayed," it is true that the Greek word παραδίδωμι also means "hand over; deliver." That's exactly what Judas did the night of Jesus' trial: He handed Jesus over to the authorities. There is no reason to take it figuratively.

> Paul is adapting the Passover meal. ... The Gospels take Paul's wording and inserts disciples of Jesus.

Paul says differently. Paul says Jesus adapted the Passover meal. Luke's account, written a few years later (and Luke was a traveling companion of Paul's) is almost identical with this one. Though it is often claimed that Luke got much of his information from Mark. What we are seeing is a consistent account of the Passover meal Jesus instituted as a fulfillment of the original Passover.

Here, in truth, is what we have: Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples, adapting the Passover meal with regard to His fulfillment of it. (The Passover, then, was not only a memorial, but also prophetic, as are many elements of the sacrifices, the Temple, and feasts.)

> Where does Paul even remotely indicate anyone was a student of Jesus?

It's what he means by "apostle." The Greek word is ἀπόστολος, meaning "Special messenger; one sent with a message; one especially commissioned; one who proclaimed the gospel; one sent; an authorized spokesman; one clothed with the authority and endued with the power of the sender." The only people recognized as apostles were those who were eyewitnesses of Jesus' physical resurrection and who had been specifically commissioned by Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations. It quickly became a term referring to the 11 disciples and to Paul. These men were all students of Jesus, as Paul recognizes in Galatians 1-2. The apostles were the 12 who had been known as Jesus' disciples (1 Cor. 15.5). In Galatians 1.17 he wants his readers to know that his message is exactly the same as those who had been Jesus' followers, but he didn't get his message from them. The Jerusalem apostles were those who had traveled with Jesus during the years of His ministry. The 12 disciples ARE "the sent ones" (Mt. 28.19-20; Jn. 20.21; Mk. 3.14; Mt. 4.19). That's where indicates these men were the "students"—the disciples, the 12 who had traveled with him—of Jesus.

> We know Paul merely had dreams of Jesus.

This is also incorrect. I don't know where you're getting this information, but it must not be an accurate source. In 1 Cor. 15.8, Paul specifies that he saw the Lord. His "seeing" Jesus was different from the apostles because Paul saw Jesus after the ascension, not before it as had the 12. Paul admits to having seen Jesus in a qualitatively distinct way from the way the 12 did—in an abnormal fashion. But the proximity of 1 Cor. 9.1 means that we should assume here in 1 Cor. 15.8 what is clear there in 1 Cor. 9.1: Paul intends to refer to a "seeing" that was on par with normal human seeing. It may have been more than that, but it most certainly was not less ("a dream"). It was not simply a private experience.

Paul says "last of all" (1 Cor. 15.8) to make clear that, his
"seeing" of Jesus (a physical seeing like 9.1 and commensurate with the apostles' "seeing" in 1 Cor. 15.5-7) was the last of a sequence of physical seeing that had come to an end. Many people have had dreams and visions of Jesus, but Paul's was the same "kind" of seeing as the disciples, who physically saw Jesus—the kind of experience no one else would have.

It is also to be noted that 1 Cor. 15.1-11 as a whole clearly speaks of a public event for which there is evidence in the form of eyewitnesses who saw something and can be interrogated. Paul puts his seeing of Jesus in that same category, not as a dream or vision only.