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[MolyRoly]

Do you think God might be willing to reveal Himself to me in ways that I can detect (i.e., not necessarily through miracles, but even through circumstances)? I wonder, if He exists, if He could open my eyes!

[jimwalton]

Yes, God is very willing to reveal himself to you, even through circumstances, but that gets tricky. Circumstances are very tricky and unreliable things. People interpret good times as the hand of God, and trouble as the work of Satan. It's a very unscriptural way to look at things. Mostly they're just seeing things the way they want to see them. Just because things are going well, or might be working out, are not necessarily a sign of God’s revealing himself that way. By the same token, when things are going poorly doesn’t mean God isn’t revealing himself. Generally speaking, we as humans do a ghastly job of interpreting our circumstances, and therefore there are all kinds of cockeyed stories out there, with Christians blathering on about “God did this,” and “God did that,” when it’s just wishful thinking and seeing what you want to see. We always want to avoid the stupidity curve. That’s not to say God can’t be perceived in our circumstances, but it’s real tricky, it can take a bit of a trained eye, and it always has to be done with a heart of humility and checks and balances.

So saying, I did a simple reading of the book of Romans. Here’s what I can tell you, even just from that book, about what the Bible teaches us about how God reveals himself.

1. It’s hardly ever through those astounding things called miracles, though once or twice in life we may get to experience such a thing. Even when they happen, though, there is always another possible interpretation, so it is a matter of belief. For instance, at age 19 my son had a debilitating stroke. After it, he was laying in a hospital bed, mumbling non-understandably, and doctors could not assure us he was going to live or not be a vegetable the rest of his life. We went to bed that night and hardly slept. Our church people gathered at 6 in the morning to pray earnestly for him. When we woke up, we went to see Adam at 9, when visiting hours opened. He greeted us with, “Hi Mom. Hi Dad.” Within two weeks he was back at college. Miracle, or medical occurrence? Tough to tell, isn’t it? I don’t want to be stupid, but I don’t want to be blind either.

2. I believe God reveals himself to me by convincing and convicting me of truth as I read his Word, the Bible, about what it says. (Rom. 1.2-4) When I read the Bible, it cuts me deep, and impresses me. Other people read it and think it’s stupid stuff. Well, I believe that when I read and am convicted about what it says, and convinced of its truth that God is revealing himself to me through his Word. The Bible itself says we can only understand it as the Spirit gives us understanding, and I find this to be true.

3. I believe God reveals himself to me by giving me inner change (Rom. 1.5). When I was fired from my job a little more than a year ago, the surge of anger, hurt, and bitterness rose up in me like a dragon. But then it goes away (Rom. 6.4). What makes that go away? It isn’t me. I want revenge on those people for what they did to me. But I’m aware of a force of change inside me, making me a different person (Rom. 5.3-4; 7. 21-25).

4. God reveals himself to me through other people (Rom. 1.6). I see people come to Christ and their lives are turned around, with no other explanation. It sure ain’t just being religious; these people are different. I see people deliberately making decisions based on biblical teaching other than on what they would normally have done. I see people responding differently than their personalities and character, because Christ is in them. I see God in those people. Is it a matter of interpretation on my part? Of course. Weathermen can look at the charts, and the skies, and know how to interpret them. I don’t. I go, “Uh, I hope it doesn’t rain today. Duh.”

5. Through nature his power and divine nature are detectable (Rom. 1.20). I probably don't need to elaborate on this one.

6. God reveals himself in different ways to people who already believe (Rom. 3.21-22). Just like sports, where you have to join the team before you get to catch the ball; those who show faith get shown God (Rom. 5.5).

7. God reveals himself in all the stories he has written for us in the Bible. It shows Him to us, and we should be able to see it (Rom. 9).

That's just from the book of Romans, but I thought it would be a good place to start the discussion.

[Newbie]

Thank you for writing me your very thoughtful message. I think you've understood me correctly. I would only say that, if God exists, it doesn't make a difference to me. It makes no more of a difference to me than the possible existence of aliens does to you. God simply doesn't come in contact with me in ways I can tell. All I have is an ancient text that wasn't even written to me, and an idiosyncratic band of followers. But, even mystically God doesn't reveal Himself. For instance, when I ask for the miracle of faith (i.e., belief in Him), He won't even do that! When I ask to have my eyes opened, there is no change in me. I'm looking for some indication that there is a mind independent of my own making contact, or that there is a power that comes from God that changes me. I even ask for a greater awareness of His presence (something that transcends my senses!). But, guess what? There is nothing. So, why would I commit to something that doesn't even meet my most basic needs? I do not say that God doesn't exist. I say that I don't believe He does. I simply don't care to pursue a God who possibly exists who nonetheless appears to act as though He doesn't. It may even be that He most likely exists, in which case I still don't care. You may ask, then, why do I care? I care to the extent that I believe God might actually come through. But, that extent is becoming less and less over time with each disappointment. Atheism is simply my way of coping with the disappointment. And, I'm sick of being disappointed.

Lastly, I still ask you: "If God doesn't actually exist, how would you know in your blind faith that you're defending an idea that doesn't have a reality?" Or, do you not think it's possible God doesn't exist? ...I believe God may or may not exist, and that all the evidence may or may not be true. Experience of God is the crucial "last straw" that will enable me personally to make a decision. And, it seems that that crucial straw is missing. Life is not only easier without worrying about God, it makes more sense to me to believe He doesn't exist, because this corresponds with the absense of the experience of God. And, my experience on this particular issue, as I've said, is what is crucial. I'm not going to follow a God whom I cannot even experience. Otherwise, I'd truly think I am make-believing a relationship with Him I do not have. So, this really is a personal choice. You may dislike it. But, it isn't your decision.

[jimwalton]

My mind keeps chugging. I guess I have some questions.

1. If God (assuming He exists), the majestic supernatural being, were to come in contact with you as you desire, what would it be like? Can you describe to me the experience you desire?
2. Would He come into contact with everyone in the same way, or would it be different for different people?
3. How would you communicate your sublime experience to others?
4. Should they believe you?

[Newbie]

Subjectively, the knowledge of God would be unlike anything we've experienced. It would be knowledge with which one is born, and not something that requires the five senses. Everyone would have a sense of knowing this God, of being related to Him, of having purpose, etc. As for God's spontaneously relating to individuals, God would relate to each in a way most meaningful to them (e.g., audibly, visually, etc.), and would endow them with the recognition that this is God. Others could tell that it is God, because He would implant the knowledge that it is He. And, God could even speak en masse!

That said, we don't live in an ideal world, and so, the way in which God could most reliably relate to me is personally through people. But, it would have to be in a very meaningful and personal way—particularly, God speaking through others into areas of my life that only I know about. And, if God could do that for others in ways most meaningful to them, then people wouldn't simply have to take me at my word. And, through this means God could identify Himself and point to which "holy text" is the right one!

[jimwalton]

What you describe in the first paragraph is what the Bible implies it was like in the Garden of Eden: people with a knowledge of God both in their beings and in their sensory experiences. They all had a sense of knowing this God, of being related to Him, and of having purpose. He, in turn, related to them in meaningful ways and endowed them with the recognition that this is God. What brought that to a slamming close was sin—sin that created a barrier that didn't allow that kind of relationship any more. Sin changed the inside of us so that even our knowledge of God in our inner beings was clouded, and our experience of him in the world was all but shut down. Christ redeemed us and re-established the relationship with those who turn to him in faith, but that kind of open and obvious relationship won't return until heaven (1 Jn. 3.1-2; Rev. 21-22).

You seek what we all seek: that the wall be gone and the clouds clear away (1 Cor. 13.12). Sin created the barrier, and that's why the God connection is not only such a mess, but mostly invisible.

So God relates to us mostly through other people: the people who wrote down his revelation in what we call the Bible, and the Christian people around us who are the mouth, hands, feet, and voice of God. But it's not so obvious in the way that you wish it were, because it can't be. Sin is STILL in the way. When someone speaks to you, you hear their voice. Was it a thought from God through their mouth? Tough to tell, isn't it, unless it's so spectacular and over the top (every time, presumably) that it's totally unmistakable. So God has to bring the jazz every time he speaks so that you recognize it to be him? That's like people coming to Jesus: "Show us a sign!" (Mt. 12.38; 16.1). Jesus said, "You know, this isn't a traveling circus show." And after Jesus left the scene, there weren't all these miracles. Paul travelled around and preached to people, trying to make sense to them. The New Testament is clear that the focus of ministry is not the jazz. Jesus says it: “The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.” It was the preaching, not the jazz. It's the truth of Jesus, not the liver shiver and that mysterious message that only I could have known. (Interestingly enough, Jesus DID that for Nathanael in Jn. 1.47 and he was convinced. God did it 10 times for Pharaoh, and it didn't accomplish diddly-squat. Turns out it's the heart, not the message.)

[Newbie]

While I was reading the conversation, I found myself getting so frustrated with God for not revealing himself to this person, who was obviously seeking Him and asking Him to. I understand that God gives us the free will to seek a relationship with Him or not, and that He will never force us to love Him if we choose not to, because to do so would diminish the true intimacy and nature of our communion with Him as a result. He longs for us to love Him in return, of our own accord. I understand this, and I praise God for it. But my heart so breaks for the ones that want to understand, that want to have faith and love God, but lack the experience of relationship with Him and discernment of His workings in their life to ever really believe. People like this one who posted on your site. So my question to you is, why does God seem to hesitate, or not reveal Himself to the people seeking Him in ways that they can interpret or respond to? It is so confusing to me when I see people earnestly praying for God's divine faith, revelation and understanding, and then not feeling anything in response. I feel like God would want to jump at that opportunity. So then I figure of course, that the fault doesn't lie with God, but with the individual's heart. That God IS answering their prayers, but in their haze of sin and disconnection, they are blind to it. But then, why doesn't God speak through that haze? If He wants them to know Him, and they want to know Him, I just don't see where the problem is, since God is more than capable of softening our hearts and giving us what we need in order to believe. So then I find my unsettled heart wondering, "Why me? Why me, and not her?" (Which takes me back to several other questions I tried to hash out recently regarding Romans 9 and predestination, but that's another conversation entirely.)

I would just really like to hear your take on the wonderings that unsettle this faithful girl's humble, young, yearning heart.

[jimwalton]

Maybe this is going to sound nasty, but I have to be perfectly honest: I think Christians do a real disservice to God the way we talk about how God reveals himself to us. Let me say a few things by way of explanation of my own statement.

1. Throughout Scripture, God reveals himself in different ways:

Through Scripture. Acts 2.16-21; 4.25-26
Through others. Dt. 18.17-19; Num. 15.2
Circumstances/Events. Gn. 50.20; Acts 1.26
Impressions. Acts 15.36; 1 Cor. 12.7-9
Audibly. 1 Sam. 3.7-10; Ex. 33.11; 1 Ki. 19.11-12
Inwardly. 1 Sam. 23.2
Through surprising means. Ex. 3.4
Through visions. Ezk. 12.23-28; 40.2-4; Dan. 8.1
Through dreams. Gn. 37.5
Through demonstrations of power. Acts 3.1-10; 1 Cor. 2.4-5

I notice how many of these things are subjective, except for the miraculous stuff. I'll say this: people (Christians) are pretty flippant about throwing around the line "God told me...", and I guess to be honest I'd say I'm not so convinced. (Our charismatic brothers and sisters are more prone to this than others, but they are far from having a monopoly on this business.) My observations through the years have been that people are downright terrible at interpreting their circumstances. They want to see God everywhere, and it's just WRONG. Such an attitude and approach has misled THOUSANDS (million? Tens of millions?) of people, and discouraged them about God and faith. It's because they were off target from the get-go and didn't know it. What about "impressions" and "inwardly"? Same travesty. People are BAD at this game, but they think they're good at it.

2. Let me tell you a little bit about my experience, not that my experience is normative, but I think it is. I went through a TERRIBLE time in my life that was the deepest, darkest hole I've ever been in. I feared for my life and my sanity. I knew, I KNEW, that I didn't need a shrink or a pastor, but the only One who could honestly, truly, help me was God himself. I went all in, seeking him for hours and hours EVERY DAY, seeking him through the nights, fasting, praying, reading Scripture, reading books. I cried, I screamed, I talked, I read—talk about desperate. Things got worse (and I didn't think they really could). This went on FOR YEARS. Yeah, you heard it right: YEARS—maybe 3? I almost left the faith, but the resurrection is what held me in. I just couldn't get around the resurrection, even though I accused God of being a liar, of the faith being a sham, etc. etc. You don't want to hear it all. I prayed every day that God would reveal himself to me. I sat silent in prayer for HOURS at a time so God could speak to me. He didn't, day after day. I was so angry I could spit fire. I would take long walks, and cry, and ask God to speak to me. Thoughts would come to my head that I interpreted as the voice of God. Let me skip long ahead and tell you that it turned out those thoughts were LIES. Yeah, when I was in the darkest hole, and pleading with God to talk to me and save my life, he was as silent as could be, and what came to my head were lies. I was so bitter that God, when I was at my weakest, was noticeably absent and let lies come to me. I felt betrayed and rejected. Things got even worse (and I didn't think they really could). The resurrection wouldn't let me go, though. I couldn't get around it. I'll trim a whole bunch of the long story for the sake of time. In my reading of Scripture things started coming clear. I had been reading Scripture all along, and it was the only thing keeping me afloat. God, through the Scripture, little by little, day by day, started piecing me back together. The Scripture is how God spoke to me—how he revealed himself. What does the Bible say? Hebrews 1: God reveals himself through the prophets, and through his Son. How did God reveal himself to the kings of old? Through his word, and through his prophets. How did he reveal himself to people of old? Through the reading of his word (read Ezra, and so many others). There is precious little Scripture that God reveals himself through circumstances, through special events, through nature, and even through prayer. But there is MOUNTAINS of Scripture to teach us that THE PRIMARY WAY GOD TALKS TO US IS THROUGH HIS WORD. If you follow you inner leanings, good luck. If you follow the Word of God, now you're talking. People can claim all kinds of ways God "talked" to them through the green light they got, the envelope in the mail, or dream in the night. I'm not saying God CAN'T or DOESN'T talk to people in those ways, but the most reliable and PRIMARY way he talks to people is through his WORD. This is not well understood by Christian people, and is has wreaked HAVOC in the church.

3. Back to your question at hand. Our other friend, who you referred to, who asked the question above? I can't speak for him or his church, but I'm guessing he was misled by the Christians around him, caught up in "God said this to me" and "God did that for me", and he could not replicate those experiences. Of course, I think I know why, but it's hardly my place to judge. I wasn't there, but I'm trying hard to put myself in his shoes. He was grabbing and grappling after an illusion foisted on him by other believers, and when he found a hole at the end of the trail instead of God, he punched out and never came back.

I would like to say that God would see his innocence and respond to his honest seeking, and then lead him in the right way. But you and I both know that when God responds to the wrong stimulus, it just teaches lies and endorses false religion. If there is one thing the Bible is firm about (and it's firm about many), it's that we have to approach God on HIS terms, and as he is, rather than on our terms and what we think him to be. This poor person, in my opinion, is one of the victims of misunderstood and mistaught Christianity, and the people who are responsible for that will be accountable (Mt. 18)

Feel free to talk back to me.