Oh I'm sorry, you'll have to excuse me because this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
I understand your argument to be sure, but it doesn't apply. God would have unlimited resources to test the entirety of humanity INDIVIDUALLY in the same way and under the same conditions instead of marking them "fail" before they are even tested, which would be the case given the theology you're putting forth. We don't even know for a fact that there IS a test going on, so in what way is that fair? If I'm not mistaken, you think the rules and penalties for the game were described to them, in person, in full clarity before they "lost" yes? They got a direct chance to be part of the kingdom, the rest of us have to earn our way, in the dark, without ever having seen the room we're playing in or the contents therein.
Board index ‹ Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages ‹ Genesis
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Re: Genesis 3.4-5
by Newbie » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:54 pm
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Re: Genesis 3.4-5
by jimwalton » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:31 pm
I'm sorry you've misunderstood so severely. I thought my illustration of the American Revolution was clear enough, but I'll try again. Supposing a pregnant dog runs away from its master. When the pups are born, they are born lost also, just as the mother is lost. The master never marked them as "fail" before they were tested. It's the nature of their action that they are lost in the woods through no decision of their own. Don't blame the master for that.
As far as a test, the text is virtually unarguable. In Gn. 2.16-17, humankind is given freedom (eat from any tree y'all want) and a prohibition (except for THIS one). As I mentioned in previous posts, the phrase "knowledge of good and evil" is judicial lingo denoting the ability to decide. Theologically, it's a trial of obedience to God, certainly. Literalily, it's a test motif, common in literature and movies. Can the protagonist hold the course despite the trials at hand? We do know for a fact that there is a test going on. And God had made the rules and penalties of the game quite clear. In chapter 1, humans had been ordained to rule over the earth and subdue it as God's priests in his temple. In 2.15 that is repeated, as the words "to work it and take of it" are terms used far more often in priestly duties than they are agricultural ones. It was clear to these people that they had been created to fellowship with God and serve him in his temple as priest and priestess. Then he's very clear in Gn. 2.17 that one tree is prohibited from them, and they know which tree it is, and that if they disobey him, they will fall under a death sentence, meaning they will be separated from Life (God). They were already mortal (created of dust in Gn. 2.7). But if they disobey this one command, they will show that their loyalties and values lie outside of God's character. Chapter 3.1 confirms this, for the serpent questions and distorts what God had said to them. So you are right that I am claiming with full confidence that the rules and penalties for the game were described to them, in person, in full clarity. (We're also not to think that the record we have is all that was done and said, but we are given enough to understand what was said, what the choice was, and what was happening. But even in what we have the progress of the story is clear.)
> They got a direct chance to be part of the kingdom, the rest of us have to earn our way, in the dark...
Here I have some clarity for you. The Bible is clear that no one has to earn their own way. The way to God is a gift that you merely need to respond to. There is definitely no earning involved, and it's certainly not in the dark. The Bible tells us clearly where the light is, what room we are playing in, and what the contents are. It paints a clear picture of humanity, still "lost in the woods," and of God who has found the "litter" and invites any pups who want to back to his house where it is light, a warm fire, good food, and a relationship with the master. As I said in the analogy of America and Britain, anyone who wants to can become a citizen of the kingdom of heaven, not by earning, but by accepting.
As it turns out, despite that we are born "lost," we each have the same decision to make as Adam and Eve did. Are we going to live life centered around self, or around God? Are we masters of our own ship, or do we acknowledge God as our reference point? You're not marked as "fail" before you even get started, you're separated from Life by the action of those who went before you, but you (and everyone) have an open invitation to have both life and light.
Feel free to ask more.
As far as a test, the text is virtually unarguable. In Gn. 2.16-17, humankind is given freedom (eat from any tree y'all want) and a prohibition (except for THIS one). As I mentioned in previous posts, the phrase "knowledge of good and evil" is judicial lingo denoting the ability to decide. Theologically, it's a trial of obedience to God, certainly. Literalily, it's a test motif, common in literature and movies. Can the protagonist hold the course despite the trials at hand? We do know for a fact that there is a test going on. And God had made the rules and penalties of the game quite clear. In chapter 1, humans had been ordained to rule over the earth and subdue it as God's priests in his temple. In 2.15 that is repeated, as the words "to work it and take of it" are terms used far more often in priestly duties than they are agricultural ones. It was clear to these people that they had been created to fellowship with God and serve him in his temple as priest and priestess. Then he's very clear in Gn. 2.17 that one tree is prohibited from them, and they know which tree it is, and that if they disobey him, they will fall under a death sentence, meaning they will be separated from Life (God). They were already mortal (created of dust in Gn. 2.7). But if they disobey this one command, they will show that their loyalties and values lie outside of God's character. Chapter 3.1 confirms this, for the serpent questions and distorts what God had said to them. So you are right that I am claiming with full confidence that the rules and penalties for the game were described to them, in person, in full clarity. (We're also not to think that the record we have is all that was done and said, but we are given enough to understand what was said, what the choice was, and what was happening. But even in what we have the progress of the story is clear.)
> They got a direct chance to be part of the kingdom, the rest of us have to earn our way, in the dark...
Here I have some clarity for you. The Bible is clear that no one has to earn their own way. The way to God is a gift that you merely need to respond to. There is definitely no earning involved, and it's certainly not in the dark. The Bible tells us clearly where the light is, what room we are playing in, and what the contents are. It paints a clear picture of humanity, still "lost in the woods," and of God who has found the "litter" and invites any pups who want to back to his house where it is light, a warm fire, good food, and a relationship with the master. As I said in the analogy of America and Britain, anyone who wants to can become a citizen of the kingdom of heaven, not by earning, but by accepting.
As it turns out, despite that we are born "lost," we each have the same decision to make as Adam and Eve did. Are we going to live life centered around self, or around God? Are we masters of our own ship, or do we acknowledge God as our reference point? You're not marked as "fail" before you even get started, you're separated from Life by the action of those who went before you, but you (and everyone) have an open invitation to have both life and light.
Feel free to ask more.
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