Board index ‹ Salvation

[Newbie]

You might believe in the soul, and you must know some things about the brain. Problem is like this. How can someone be accepted by god if the person was incapable of doing good, acknowledge his existence or love him.

Let's say someone has a problem with over secreting adrenaline, or his brain is wired for uncontrollable acts of rage. These are out of his control. Does god forgive him for them?

Or someone with autism. They can't communicate properly (if at all), they can go their whole life not understanding the effects of their actions and cause harm and never know if it means anything.

Or a psychopath. Valid medical condition. Can't love, can't fell remorse. Do what feels right to them is usually egotistical and can be dangerous.

I'm going on the assumption you think everybody gets a chance for heaven. None of the people described above has any fault for their condition. But their actions and thoughts are sinful and can't repent. What happens to them?

And if they do get in automatically because it's not their fault, by what standard? Basically they have been given from birth a free pass. Some are tested and some get the ticket free?

[jimwalton]

There is no specific verse that talks about brain damaged people, but the Scripture teaches that anyone who is not capable of making a deliberate, reasoned decision is not held accountable like other people.

Dt. 1.37-40: God's people are being judged for their rebellion, but the young ones who didn't have the mental capacity to make a reasoned and moral decision like that don't get judged.

Number 14.29 speaks of a kind of "age of accountability," just as Dt. 1.37-40 did.

Isa. 7.15. People can be too young mentally to know enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.

Now, if someone truly has a problem with over-secreting adrenaline, the implications in the Bible are that all such things are taken in account in the judgment, and God only holds people accountable for their true level of accountability. Psychopath? Tough question. It depends how much they knew and reasoned, and why they did what they did, and God would know that.

Rom. 5.13 says that before the law was given...sin wasn't taken into account. These kinds of verses let us know that God allows for all kinds of nuances, and that his justice will be perfectly fair.

Do psychopaths and those with uncontrollable rage get a free pass? Not necessarily. It depends how their understanding, motives, and decisions come to play in the reality of life. The Bible says that God knows the thoughts of the mind, the motives of the heart, and the forces that come to play in what makes people do what they do, and they will be held accountable for what they knew, given grace for what they didn't, and judged fairly in consideration of all.

[Newbie]

Thanks. Much better answer. But they never can be tested if that's the case. So... automatically in heaven? The adrenaline problem is a bit strange. Restraint, you may agree, is necessary for a christian, as no man is perfect. And if that switch is broken, what is left? Repentance?

[jimwalton]

Sure, we're all expected to practice self-control, or society becomes anarchy and mayhem. But self-control is not the key to heaven.

And if that switch is broken? To some extent it's broken in all of us. None of has perfect or complete self-control, but we all fall short some time or other. Then what is left, as you say, is repentance. True. Whenever we miss the target, an adjustment is necessary. And this brings up another issue with the psychopaths and those with uncontrollable rage. It's my understanding that though their level of control is low, at least sometimes there is remorse for what they have done. But in any case, Jesus can break through that and redeem the person. Remember Son of Sam (David Berkowitz)? He became a believer—a Christian— in prison. So also Jeffrey Dahmer. No one is outside of the reach of God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY3n0RSJx2E

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Da ... _and_death

[Newbie]

Why is psychopathy associated with murder? You don't have to kill to be a psychopath. Most of them live in the real world, like you and me. Just meaner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy they are just people who don't feel the same emotions that we do. They are in need of immediate gratification, they don't feel love, fear, they lack inhibition, remorse, regret, they don't learn from past mistakes and also at the same time very focused on reality.

They have no idea what you mean you say that their heart can be touched by jesus. They can justify cruelty by curiosity or just an immediate need. Their need for immediate gratification can't even bring them close to religion (and don't assume they can even find out about yours, they can live in china too).

The reason I ask this question is because I have volunteered to work with this kind of people and whenever I hear about religion I think of them. Of autistic children who died choking on a thermometer, of psychopaths and their long and cold stares.
That message of religion might be nice to share between regular people, but these categories I'm talking about either won't understand or won't care.

They can't be just part of a divine plan, because they have no choice in the matter, and if we insist of calling everybody equal, they should get a fair chance too. A test can't be a test if it defines how you are on the inside. A psychopath would argue that the test of Job was fair game, just see how long he can endure. But that is not the same test for a psychopath, as Job's mind remained unchanged, "normal", that's even the point of the story. It they're just used as part of the test for other people, that's cruel too, because they are just tools and they can't have real choices from a theistic point of view.

Either way I think they can't be saved with faith, using the rules described by your religion, and they weren't created to be able to do so.

[jimwalton]

> You don't have to kill to be a psychopath

I agree with you. Sorry if I misspoke.

> Either way I think they can't be saved with faith

That may be so. The Bible really doesn't go into details about psychopaths. The Bible is God's contract with humanity, with examples and teaching of how that plays itself out in real life, and it reveals to us the God who is drawing up the contract.

How does the contract deal with psychopaths? That's a great question that isn't laid out for us. Some principles are laid out for us that may speak to the question.

1. God doesn't hold people accountable for what they didn't know and couldn't know.
2. God doesn't hold people accountable for what they are incapable of.
3. God knows the depths of the heart and all the thoughts of the mind, so he won't be fooled or be ignorant of what was really going on.
4. God's first treatment of people is that of love and grace. Judgment only comes as a result of true guilt.
5. God's judgments are always fair, taking into account birth, nature, influences, information available, the ability to process that information, choices, intentions, attitudes, and behaviors.