Board index ‹ Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages ‹ Exodus

[Newbie]

Who gave Pharaoh's court magicians their power? They managed to replicate several of Moses' miracles, including turning a staff into a serpent.

I've heard people say their power must have come from Satan, but Satan cannot create life, can he?

I've also heard the explanation that they were not truly supernatural feats, but mere slight of hand. The text however, doesn't say this, and it seems to imply they really did what they appeared to do.

[jimwalton]

The Bible teaches that there are spiritual forces at work in the world other than God, and those spiritual forces have some power over things in nature. Pharaoh's magicians would have been specialists in spells and incantations, as well as being familiar with omen and dream literature. They would have practiced sympathetic magic (like we understand voodoo), and would likely have been masters of some occult arts. As such, it is believed they would have worked in union with spiritual forces to do what they did, much as an occultist would do today.

Can Satan create life? No, but he can deceive with imitations, and he can delude with simulations. 2 Thes. 2.9 says, "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie..." In Rev. 13.3, "One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished..." Here we see an extremely convincing counterfeit of giving life.

It's also possible it was just sleight of hand. There are also known snake species that become rigid in certain situations (the tentacled snake, the Egyptian cobra).

Interestingly, as you likely know, the serpent was considered a wise and magical creature in Egypt, and often appears in royal settings. It symbolized the power of pharaoh, and so was an appropriate subject for this contest of the gods. That Aaron's serpent swallowed up their serpents was a powerful omen of warning, because swallowing was an omen of conquest. In Egyptian Coffin Texts swallowing is a magical act that signifies absorption of the magical powers of that which was swallowed. The Egyptian magicians would have concluded that the power of their rods had been absorbed into the rod of Moses.

[Fear of Emptiness]

"The Bible teaches that there are spiritual forces at work in the world other than God, and those spiritual forces have some power over things in nature."

Do they manifest now? If not, why did they manifest back then and not now, the same question I guess could be asked of god. Why did he manifest then and not now?

"It's also possible it was just sleight of hand."

Maybe Aaron's was also sleight of hand. Or, maybe it's all just a made up story.

[jimwalton]

Do they manifest now? I would say there is much evidence to support that they do. There are many stories from foreign lands, as well as some domestic, of demon possession. Besides that, there is a lot of creepy stuff that goes on all over that is attributed to the occult. Plus, there are many ways the spiritual forces manifest themselves. 2 Cor. 11.14 says that Satan can even masquerade himself as an angel of light, and so maybe spiritual forces manifest themselves in ways that are so deceptive you can't see it.

And does God manifest himself? Of course he does. Again, there are many stories of such things. Obviously, you don't believe any of them. That's your prerogative. But this is not an era of miracles. According to the Bible, there are primarily three: The Exodus, the ministry of Jesus and immediately after, and again in the end times.

> Maybe Aaron's was also sleight of hand.

The significance of the action is that Aaron's snake swallowed up their staffs. When Aaron’s serpent swallowed the magicians’ serpents the symbolism would clearly imply an Israelite triumph over Egypt. So, for instance, an Old Kingdom pyramid text uses the portrayal of one crown swallowing another to tell of Upper Egypt’s conquest of Lower Egypt. In Egyptian Coffin Texts swallowing is a magical act that signifies absorption of the magical powers of that which was swallowed. Thus the Egyptian magicians would have concluded that the power of their rods had been absorbed into the rod of Moses.

> Or maybe it's all just a made up story.

That's not as likely as its historicity. The Jews emerged as a nation several centuries later, a historic event that's unlikely if they were subsumed into Egypt, or never escaped (as many didn't). Their arrival in the hill country of Canaan sometime in the later 2nd millennium, with a complete and intact national history gives evidence that stories like this are historiography. Assuming it's legendary or mythological takes more faith on your part.

[Sure Breeze]

"The Bible teaches that there are spiritual forces at work in the world other than God"

There is something in the universe not controlled by God that acts against Gods interests? It seems like you're implying there are actually other gods, Egyptian gods in this case, that are actively fighting the Hebrew God.

"It's also possible it was just sleight of hand. There are also known snake species that become rigid in certain situations (the tentacled snake, the Egyptian cobra)."

So when the Egyptians do it, it's an explained sleight of hand. When Moses/Aaron does it, it's God's power?

[jimwalton]

The Bible is blunt about the reality of other spiritual forces at work in the world that oppose God. I'll just mention a few:

- In Daniel 10, a spiritual being came to deliver a message to Daniel, but said he had been detained for 3 weeks (v. 13) before receiving help that enabled him to get through with his message.
- Ephesians 6.12 says that there is a entire spiritual force of different descriptions at work in the spiritual realm beyond our senses: rulers, authorities, powers of the world, and spiritual forces.
- Rev. 12.7; 13.7; 17.14

They are spiritual beings with spiritual power, and they are not controlled by God (1 Jn. 5.19), and they act against his interests (1 Pet. 5.8-9). They are not what I would call gods in the sense that they are equal to the power of YHWH, but they undoubtedly have great power and are actively fighting the Hebrew God. I would describe them more as wanna-bees, contenders without a chance, but they fight none the less.

> So when the Egyptians do it, it's an explained sleight of hand. When Moses/Aaron does it, it's God's power.

My first explanation is that these magicians were masters of the occult, doing their work by spiritual forces. I think it was spiritual power vs. Spiritual Power—a contest in the cage. The result was the clear and undisputed superiority of YHWH over the posers. Only as a distant second was I entertaining the possibility that it was sleight of hand, but it took legitimate power to successfully overcome the power of their trickery.

[Sure Breeze]

I just can't believe your God is this impotent to allow these things to happen.

Still, I think this particular discussion is winding down because there is no evidence for Exodus - I just wanted to comment on these other non-God Gods.

[jimwalton]

> I just can't believe your God is this impotent to allow these things to happen.

The presence of opponents is not the definition of impotence. Allowing opponents to act is not the definition of impotence. Impotence is being unable to take effective action; it's being powerless or helpless. If you read these texts fairly (meaning not with a closed mind), you can easily see that powerlessness, helplessness, and impotence are not in the picture. Sometimes, as we all know to be true, there are advantages to letting an enemy make headway on one front or another, for strategic purposes. Sometimes, as we all know to be true, because of the necessity of free will, our enemy is able to play out options. We might always be able to meet them with superior force, but the enemy can always play them out. Do you remember the US invasion of Grenada in 1983? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada). The enemy has power, and makes strategic moves, but that doesn't make the US impotent against it.

> there is no evidence for Exodus

Well, you obviously haven't done your homework. If you want to discuss this, I'd be glad to.