Board index ‹ Prayer

[Lucky Guy]

Basically, I want to understand why people think that praying FOR things would work. I was raised Catholic, and I was always of the mind that praying was great for looking for guidance, or direction, or offering up myself or something of that sort. Things that were about a personal relationship with God. It didn't make sense to me that God could be swayed to give me stuff through prayer.

Why do people pray 'for' things? And why do they think that it will be effective? Why do people ask for prayers? And why is praying for someone good?

I have trouble imagining that god's mind would be changed by a prayer. And I find it hard to imagine that he just didn't know that little Timmy needed protection during his surgery. Or that he was going to let harm come to a person but now will not because people asked for it.

Am I missing something in the logic?

Full disclosure... I am no longer religious personally. But I am interested in seeing what opinions are on prayer.

[jimwalton]

God does answer prayer. Prayer does work. There are thousands of stories of honest testimony of how God has answered people’s prayer about their circumstances. Yet God has made it clear in his Word that almost all of what he does (we’re into the billions of stories now) is in the inner person, not in changing the circumstances. He mostly works inside of people, not outside of them. God does work in our circumstances; we just need to understand mostly how this happens. Rather than just anecdotal stories, though, look at what the Bible says.

At one time in my life, I was desperately looking for an answer to the question, "What does God do for me?" What can I honestly expect of him? So I read the entire New Testament, and here's what I found: Almost *everything* the Bible says about what God does for us has to do with salvation. Almost everything. So I looked harder: Other than salvation (forgiveness, redemption, justification, etc.), how does God help me through life?

1. Comfort in time of mourning (Matthew 5.4; 2 Corinthians 1.4; 7.6); rest (Matthew 10.28), and peace (John 16.33; 14.27; Romans 5.1; 15.13; Philippians 4.7, 9)
2. May answer some requests in prayer (Matthew 7.11; James 5.15-16)
3. Gives me words to say at martyrdom or oppression (Matthew 10.19)
4. Teaches me about Himself:
a. Gives knowledge of himself (Romans 1.19-20; 1 Corinthians 4.1; 2 Corinthians 4.6; Ephesians 1.17)
b. Gives knowledge of his kingdom (Matthew 13.11)
c. Makes his righteousness known (Romans 3.21)
d. Gives knowledge of his will (Colossians 1.15) and equips us to do it (Hebrews 13.21)
e. Gives knowledge of salvation (Hebrews 2.4)
5. Gives me the Holy Spirit
a. teach me about God (John 14.26) (see 4a above)
b. helps me in my weakness (Romans 8.26)
c. intercedes for me in prayer (Romans 8.26-27) (see #2 above)
d. gives me spiritual gifts to use in ministry for Him (Romans 12.6ff; 1 Corinthians 12.4ff; Ephesians 4.11)
e. seals me for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4.30)
6. God is always at work to mold us and make us into his image, which is possible through any circumstance. (Romans 8.28; 2 Corinthians 2.14; 3.18; Ephesians 1.4; Hebrews 13.21) He is renewing us day by day (2 Corinthians 4.16) and making us righteous (2 Corinthians 9.10)
7. Gives me faith in differing amounts (Romans 12.3)
8. Plays some role in installing and deposing governing authorities (Romans 13.1-5).
9. Gives me strength, endurance and encouragement (Romans 15.5; 1 Corinthians 1.8; 2 Corinthians 1.21; 4.7, 11, 16; 12.9; Colossians 1.11; 1 Peter 4.11; 5.10)
10. Gives a spirit of unity (Romans 15.5) among Christians
11. Gives us joy (Romans 15.13; 2 Corinthians 8.2)
12. Enriches me in every way: in speech and knowledge and good works (1 Corinthians 1.5; 2.13; 2 Corinthians 9.8, 10-11) (See #4 above)
13. Provides a way of escape from temptation (1 Corinthians 10.13)
14. Gives me grace (2 Corinthians 9.14; 12.9; Ephesians 4.7; James 4.6)
15. Blesses me in the heavenly realms with spiritual blessings (Ephesians 1.3)
16. Disciplines us for our good (Hebrews 12.10)
17. Generously gives us wisdom (James 1.5)
18. He comes near to us when we come near to him (James 4.8)
19. Cooperates with doctors and medicinal treatments to bring healing to the sick (James 5.15)

To me it's fascinating that we see almost NOTHING here about God changing our circumstances. Almost everything in the New Testament (at least 98-99%) of what God does for us is internal, spiritual things. Almost none of it, if any, pertains to our external lives, our circumstances, our money, our possessions, our health, our relationships, or anything else.

Oddly enough, about 98% of our prayers are about circumstances of health, money, possessions, relationships, and jobs, when 98% of what God does has nothing to do with circumstances. Working inside us for our spiritual welfare is God’s normal pattern of working. No wonder people get so frustrated with their prayer lives and God not answering their requests for a change of circumstance. Generally speaking, God does not involve himself in our circumstances. His interest, by his own revelation, is in our souls.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't pray about our circumstances. God invites us to ask for things in prayer. Paul says we should pray about everything. And occasionally God does answer prayers about "little Timmy needing protection during his surgery." But it doesn't rock my faith if nothing happens.

[Lucky Guy]

I totally get the stuff pertaining to salvation. Its not my bag personally, but I understand it and see how prayer brings those things, the joy, spirit of unity, wisdom, grace, spiritual gifts etc. But when it comes to circumstances, is there a good reason to ask for prayers? If god has a plan and is all knowing, does it make a difference to the outcome if no one prays vs. one person praying vs. thousands of people praying? If something bad happens, can it ever be attributed to not enough people praying?

And when Paul says we should pray about everything, does he mean that we ought to have that mindful thought and reflective wisdom about everything we do, or does he mean that we ought to pray that the Packers get a field goal? I would be more inclined to think it is the former.

It appears from what you have presented (and my own understanding in the past), that the Bible really defines prayer as a way to commune with god about your spiritual life and a way to reflect on your choices and your actions.... rather than as a means of having God intercede on your behalf via divine power to make circumstances meet with your desires.
Also, thanks for responding and providing references. Big thumbs up for you!

[jimwalton]

> when it comes to circumstances, is there a good reason to ask for prayers?

Yeah, there are good reasons, but the answers or non-answers shouldn't shake our faith. God never promises to answer prayers about our circumstances, and we have learned that most of the time he doesn't. But sometimes he does, and so we pray. We're never given the criteria by which he decides. But as you've said, prayer isn't largely about asking for stuff and having God give it or not give it. That makes God into either Santa Claus or the evil, withholding Santa (mwuha-ha-ha-ha-ha!). Prayer is primarily a way for us to commune with God, as you say, to relate to God, to talk to him, share our lives, happy things, concerns, daily activities, meditate on the Bible, and to take time to be quiet and think about what God has shared with us in the Bible. Asking for things is only actually a small part of what prayer is about. God intends prayer to be successful and rewarding, but if all you do is ask for stuff, you're going to be one confused and frustrated puppy, because you don't grasp what prayer is mostly all about. As you've said, prayer is really about a relationship with God rather than as a means of having God intercede on your behalf to make circumstances meet your desires. People get so frustrated that God doesn't do what they ask, ergo, he doesn't exist. It's just misunderstandings.

> If god has a plan and is all knowing, does it make a difference to the outcome if no one prays vs one person praying vs thousands of people praying? If something bad happens, can it ever be attributed to not enough people praying?

God has a plan for salvation, but humans aren't determined. There isn't a singular plan of how life is going to work out. God invites us to pray, and the Bible is pretty clear that God's actions are fluid depending on what people decide and what they pray. God invites us to pray with the idea that he is listening and changes can be made. Read Jeremiah 18.1-12 for an example.

> And when Paul says we should pray about everything, does he mean that we ought to have that mindful thought and reflective wisdom about everything we do, or does he mean that we ought to pray that the Packers get a field goal?

Yeah, the "Packers" kind of prayer is what lots of people seem to think, and it's just...so...WEIRD! Seriously, where do people get ideas like that? It is, as you say, more the former. God want us to pray. He invites us to ask, he wants us to feel free to ask, and he likes it when we ask. Prayer is not just having mindful thought and reflective wisdom, but it's actually communicating with God. Phil. 4.6 says to feel free to ask for anything, and 1 Thessalonians 5.17 says we should "pray continually." Obviously that doesn't mean kneeling by your bedside all day every day and doing nothing else. It means our minds should always be referencing God, and that have a habit of thinking about him all the time, communicating with him, having the whole attitude of heart that looks for his work in our lives, sees God's meaning in life, grateful to God for life's daily blessings, and thinking about God through the day, even while we're at the Packers game.