> Since we will have a complete understanding of how love and justice really can work together and are not mutually exclusive, we will know that everyone who is in hell chose to be there,
If you do not yet know that everyone in hell chose to be there, why are you saying that you know everyone in hell chose to be there?
> People that you know are in hell right now, and yet not only does that not keep you awake at night,
So it's OK for Christians not to care about the least of these" burning in hell because non-Christians do not care about the least of these burning in hell. God sets the bar pretty low for Christians.
> In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.19-31, the rich man seems very aware of Lazarus in heaven, but Lazarus doesn't seem to be aware of the rich man in hell.
So even though when you are in heaven you will know that people chose to put themselves in hell you will not be aware that anyone is in hell. I think I'm done here.
Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell
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Re: How can one be in heaven and not think about friends in
by The King » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:43 pm
- The King
Re: How can one be in heaven and not think about friends in
by jimwalton » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:55 pm
Once again, you have distorted what I said. You have a knack. I never said that I "do not yet know that everyone in hell chose to be there." Everyone has a choice to choose God or not God. It's even a choice available to you right now. God has issued an invitation to you to choose him. John 3.16-21 is as clear a piece of writing as you could want.
> So it's OK for Christians not to care about the least of these" burning in hell because non-Christians do not care about the least of these burning in hell.
Nothing more can be done for those who are already in hell. Christians work night and day around the world to persuade people to choose God and choose life and be reconciled with him. That's what Christians care about. It's not too late for those who are still here.
> So even though when you are in heaven you will know that people chose to put themselves in hell you will not be aware that anyone is in hell.
You know how the mind works. You are aware of people starving by the thousands across the globe this very minute. Well, you know about it but it probably doesn't keep you awake at night. You know about children dying from curable diseases. You know about dogs in horrible conditions in puppy mills. You know about elephants, gorillas, and rhinos being slaughtered for their body parts. What does it say about you that you go on with your life, eat three meals a day, enjoy the company of friends, and sleep at night, when you know about all these atrocities? If you're honest you'll say, "It doesn't say ANYTHING about me." Thank you. I think I'm done here too.
> So it's OK for Christians not to care about the least of these" burning in hell because non-Christians do not care about the least of these burning in hell.
Nothing more can be done for those who are already in hell. Christians work night and day around the world to persuade people to choose God and choose life and be reconciled with him. That's what Christians care about. It's not too late for those who are still here.
> So even though when you are in heaven you will know that people chose to put themselves in hell you will not be aware that anyone is in hell.
You know how the mind works. You are aware of people starving by the thousands across the globe this very minute. Well, you know about it but it probably doesn't keep you awake at night. You know about children dying from curable diseases. You know about dogs in horrible conditions in puppy mills. You know about elephants, gorillas, and rhinos being slaughtered for their body parts. What does it say about you that you go on with your life, eat three meals a day, enjoy the company of friends, and sleep at night, when you know about all these atrocities? If you're honest you'll say, "It doesn't say ANYTHING about me." Thank you. I think I'm done here too.
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Re: How can one be in heaven and not think about friends in
by Triple B » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:20 pm
What I am implying is that if God were truly good, he would not choose to hurt people.
What I am implying is that if god were omnipotent and omniscient, then he would understand that human beings are largely a result of what they are exposed to, and he would provide better insight to sinners to help them change than fear and pain.
When I was growing up, my parents did not hit me. They did not think that was morally correct. if I did something wrong, they did their best to understand why I did what i did, and to make sure I knew why my actions were harmful and why I have a responsibility to be a good person. This caused me to understand why good is good and bad is bad, and helped shape me as a person. They did this because my mother is a child psychologist, and understands how ineffective physical, fear-based, or threat based punishment is.
I expect God to be able to deal with the transgressions of humans at least as well as my parents are able to deal with transgressions of their children.
Furthermore, and most importantly, i am saying that I could not enjoy heaven with the knowledge that people I knew were being tortured. If a rich person decided to give a million dollars to anyone who followed his rules, and repeatedly stab anyone who did not, I would have a hard time enjoying my million dollars, knowing that my loved ones were somewhere being repeatedly stabbed.
What I am implying is that if god were omnipotent and omniscient, then he would understand that human beings are largely a result of what they are exposed to, and he would provide better insight to sinners to help them change than fear and pain.
When I was growing up, my parents did not hit me. They did not think that was morally correct. if I did something wrong, they did their best to understand why I did what i did, and to make sure I knew why my actions were harmful and why I have a responsibility to be a good person. This caused me to understand why good is good and bad is bad, and helped shape me as a person. They did this because my mother is a child psychologist, and understands how ineffective physical, fear-based, or threat based punishment is.
I expect God to be able to deal with the transgressions of humans at least as well as my parents are able to deal with transgressions of their children.
Furthermore, and most importantly, i am saying that I could not enjoy heaven with the knowledge that people I knew were being tortured. If a rich person decided to give a million dollars to anyone who followed his rules, and repeatedly stab anyone who did not, I would have a hard time enjoying my million dollars, knowing that my loved ones were somewhere being repeatedly stabbed.
- Triple B
Re: How can one be in heaven and not think about friends in
by jimwalton » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:22 pm
Thanks for thoughtful comments.
> God were truly good, he would not choose to hurt people.
It makes me think, "If policemen were really good, they wouldn't need guns." "If a war was moral, no weapons would be needed." You've certainly heard the saying, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." But you're saying that if God were really good, there would be no punishment for evil, he would do nothing to stem its tide, and there would be no consequences for disobedience.
> What I am implying is that if god were omnipotent and omniscient, then he would understand that human beings are largely a result of what they are exposed to, and he would provide better insight to sinners to help them change than fear and pain
Excellent point, because that's exactly what God did. Through history he revealed himself over and over to people and commanded them to write it down so others could know about it. In that writing is insights, promises, warnings, and both good and bad examples. He sent prophets to guide, to interpret circumstances, to speak warnings and blessings. Then he came himself to teach the ways of God and righteousness, show us how love really looks, teach us about God (speaking blessings and warnings), and reveal in flesh and blood what the character of God is like.
> When I was growing up, my parents did not hit me
That's great, but I bet they disciplined you in appropriate ways to create good character, responsibility, and morality in you. That's the whole idea: teach people through promises, blessings, and negative consequences how to live what is right and good. That's exactly what God does. But if physical, fear-based punishment is ineffective, why do we have prisons?
> If a rich person decided to give a million dollars to anyone who followed his rules, and repeatedly stab anyone who did not, I would have a hard time enjoying my million dollars, knowing that my loved ones were somewhere being repeatedly stabbed.
You're stuck on the "torture" mentality. Hell isn't torture, but separation from love and life. Separation from God. A better analogy would be that if a rich person decided to give a million dollars to anyone who would like to join his family and live in his house in love, and anyone who didn't want that didn't have to come. You'd scream, "But there's all those people out there starving to death and in the cold!" But that was their choice, and it's STILL their choice. Anyone can come in at any time.
"But how could I live in the mansion knowing that my brother was out in the cold?"
Go out and invite him in. Hang out the windows and call him. Call his cell. Do everything you can to persuade him to make the choice to come in. But he has to choose it. Dragging people into the mansion is not "living in his house in love." This is what God does, and this is what Christians do: "Please come into the mansion. Please join the family. Choose it. Choose to love, and choose life. Respond to the invitation for salvation." But if you refuse to come, don't blame me for being the evil one.
> God were truly good, he would not choose to hurt people.
It makes me think, "If policemen were really good, they wouldn't need guns." "If a war was moral, no weapons would be needed." You've certainly heard the saying, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." But you're saying that if God were really good, there would be no punishment for evil, he would do nothing to stem its tide, and there would be no consequences for disobedience.
> What I am implying is that if god were omnipotent and omniscient, then he would understand that human beings are largely a result of what they are exposed to, and he would provide better insight to sinners to help them change than fear and pain
Excellent point, because that's exactly what God did. Through history he revealed himself over and over to people and commanded them to write it down so others could know about it. In that writing is insights, promises, warnings, and both good and bad examples. He sent prophets to guide, to interpret circumstances, to speak warnings and blessings. Then he came himself to teach the ways of God and righteousness, show us how love really looks, teach us about God (speaking blessings and warnings), and reveal in flesh and blood what the character of God is like.
> When I was growing up, my parents did not hit me
That's great, but I bet they disciplined you in appropriate ways to create good character, responsibility, and morality in you. That's the whole idea: teach people through promises, blessings, and negative consequences how to live what is right and good. That's exactly what God does. But if physical, fear-based punishment is ineffective, why do we have prisons?
> If a rich person decided to give a million dollars to anyone who followed his rules, and repeatedly stab anyone who did not, I would have a hard time enjoying my million dollars, knowing that my loved ones were somewhere being repeatedly stabbed.
You're stuck on the "torture" mentality. Hell isn't torture, but separation from love and life. Separation from God. A better analogy would be that if a rich person decided to give a million dollars to anyone who would like to join his family and live in his house in love, and anyone who didn't want that didn't have to come. You'd scream, "But there's all those people out there starving to death and in the cold!" But that was their choice, and it's STILL their choice. Anyone can come in at any time.
"But how could I live in the mansion knowing that my brother was out in the cold?"
Go out and invite him in. Hang out the windows and call him. Call his cell. Do everything you can to persuade him to make the choice to come in. But he has to choose it. Dragging people into the mansion is not "living in his house in love." This is what God does, and this is what Christians do: "Please come into the mansion. Please join the family. Choose it. Choose to love, and choose life. Respond to the invitation for salvation." But if you refuse to come, don't blame me for being the evil one.
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Re: How can one be in heaven and not think about friends in
by Flux Capacitor » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:30 pm
So God created us such that we can't be happy or have joy without this "common grace", and then threatens to take it away from us if we refuse to worship him? How on earth do you see that as moral? That's one of the most morally disgusting things I've heard.
- Flux Capacitor
Re: How can one be in heaven and not think about friends in
by jimwalton » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:32 pm
God created you in his image. Like it or not, you have personality, free will, rationality, the capacity to love, the capacity to create, an appreciation for beauty, the ability to learn, a conscience (for knowledge of rights and wrongs), strength, and many other things. They are all gifts from God. In addition, God in his love and power has created an incredible environment of diversity, beauty, complexity, balance, and life. They are also gifts from God. What you're saying is you don't want God or anything to do with him, but you want all the "candy"—all the gifts that he has freely given to you. That's like gaining emancipation from your parents, and then instructing them to send all your holiday and birthday presents to your new residence, but you don't want anything to do with them personally. That's incongruent. What's so immoral about God wanting to bless you with gifts beyond your imagination, but not sending them if you sue him for emancipation, signing on the line that you don't believe in him and want nothing to do with him?
Why should I worship God? First, God needs to be worshipped because he is Holy (completely Other), majestic, all-powerful, spectacular, awesome, perfect, eternal, love, just, all-knowing, and as such, is worthy of a small creature such as myself recognizing the Greatness in whose presence I live.
Second, God needs to be worshipped because he has acted sacrificially on my behalf to save me from my sin, at great expense to himself, as an act of love. The magnitude of what he has done for me evokes a profound sense of gratitude, respect, love, worship, and obedience.
Third, because of the relationship I am privileged to have with God, I recognize that every thought I have, every attitude of my heart, and every action I do is essentially an act of worship: recognizing and rehearsing all of who God is, and giving all of myself to him. Why does God need that? That part is what I need. It's only right, given who he is and what he has done.
What's immoral is not recognizing what God has done for you by offering him at least a thank you.
Why should I worship God? First, God needs to be worshipped because he is Holy (completely Other), majestic, all-powerful, spectacular, awesome, perfect, eternal, love, just, all-knowing, and as such, is worthy of a small creature such as myself recognizing the Greatness in whose presence I live.
Second, God needs to be worshipped because he has acted sacrificially on my behalf to save me from my sin, at great expense to himself, as an act of love. The magnitude of what he has done for me evokes a profound sense of gratitude, respect, love, worship, and obedience.
Third, because of the relationship I am privileged to have with God, I recognize that every thought I have, every attitude of my heart, and every action I do is essentially an act of worship: recognizing and rehearsing all of who God is, and giving all of myself to him. Why does God need that? That part is what I need. It's only right, given who he is and what he has done.
What's immoral is not recognizing what God has done for you by offering him at least a thank you.
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Re: How can one be in heaven and not think about friends in
by Bagel Man » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:42 pm
Well , sure, take it on board. As long as you take on board Jesus' repeated use of Gehenna (why do you only say 1? It's actually 11) then maybe you can stop calling hell "just being without God". Clearly it is more than that.
Obviously settling this moral issue in your mind will be easy, because God was right for you before we even started, you can't turn that feeling off. I think it's despicable, though. What an evil deity.
Obviously settling this moral issue in your mind will be easy, because God was right for you before we even started, you can't turn that feeling off. I think it's despicable, though. What an evil deity.
- Bagel Man
Re: How can one be in heaven and not think about friends in
by jimwalton » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:43 pm
Of course Jesus repeatedly uses "Gehenna." It was an apt image for the people of that time. Gehenna was the Valley of Hinnom, outside of Jerusalem, where the fire burned continually. Here idolatrous Jews once offered their children to Molech (2 Ki. 23.10). Afterwards it became the common refuse-place of the city, into which the bodies of criminals, carcasses of animals, and all sorts of filth were cast. From its depth, narrowness and its fire, it became a symbol of the place of the future punishment of the wicked. As fire was the characteristic of the place, it was called the Gehenna of fire.
But let's not underestimate "just being without God." Fire is only a physical picture to portray the awfulness of that reality. It is clearly more than, "Dude, he ain't here."
> What an evil deity.
No one is evil calls good "good", bad "bad", rewards morality, righteousness and good, and punishes immorality, depravity, and evil. Discerning good and evil rather than ignoring them is actually a value.
But let's not underestimate "just being without God." Fire is only a physical picture to portray the awfulness of that reality. It is clearly more than, "Dude, he ain't here."
> What an evil deity.
No one is evil calls good "good", bad "bad", rewards morality, righteousness and good, and punishes immorality, depravity, and evil. Discerning good and evil rather than ignoring them is actually a value.
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Re: How can one be in heaven and not think about friends in
by Bagel Man » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:39 pm
Yes your God is evil upon my moral calculations. Nothing short of a self righteous bully. But me and you would merely be having a shouting match over this. Seems like you want to stress the awfulness of "just being without god" when your god fancied stressing the specifics of that a little more. But we're all in agreement that he is truly awful. All I'm doing is saying he was a little more specific than you.
- Bagel Man
Re: How can one be in heaven and not think about friends in
by jimwalton » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:55 pm
Ah, but we're NOT all in agreement that he is truly awful; only those who feel that God would be a "much better person" if he distorted justice, ignored rebellion, and rewarded evil. Being a moral person with a moral perspective, I could never entertain that God would only be truly good if he ignored evil. Just so you understand we are not all in agreement that he is truly awful. As Haile Selassie said, "Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted, the indifference of those who should have known better, the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most that has made it possible for evil to triumph." That's what you want God to be, and that is what is evil.
My issue here is that you are working so hard to make God seem evil because he perpetuates justice. But you believe strongly in justice, or you wouldn't be accusing God of being unjust. I'd be curious what your definition of "justice" is if God is the evil one for discerning good and evil rather than ignoring it, calling good "good", bad "bad", rewarding morality, righteousness and good, and punishing immorality, depravity, and evil.
There's a question for you, then. How do you define justice?
My issue here is that you are working so hard to make God seem evil because he perpetuates justice. But you believe strongly in justice, or you wouldn't be accusing God of being unjust. I'd be curious what your definition of "justice" is if God is the evil one for discerning good and evil rather than ignoring it, calling good "good", bad "bad", rewarding morality, righteousness and good, and punishing immorality, depravity, and evil.
There's a question for you, then. How do you define justice?
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