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[Yawning]

The census described in the nativity story doesn't make sense. My main point of head scratching is the provision that people have to go to their home town to be counted. This is not useful. You're counting to find out how much tax to expect from the different tax collectors. These only collect locally, i.e. at your place of residence. This is where you should count inhabitants then. Knowing how many were born somewhere is useless.

It is wasteful. People are en route for days, inns are overcrowded. GDP goes down.

It is easier to evade. How are they going to control if everybody complies? Every method that could be used to control correct behavior could much more usefully be used to do actual counting.

A census in antiquity can only be performed if you go from door to door in a tax collectors district, count heads, calculate hoe much tax to expect and then holding him accountable to that amount.

I know that non-literalists admit that the story was pieced together to make it appear Jesus had fulfilled OT prophecies. What's the literalist answer?

[jimwalton]

A public notice provides a starting point. Its first paragraph still clearly legible, and dated AD 104. It reads: "Gaius Vibius, chief prefect of Egypt. Because of the approaching census, it is necessary for all those residing for any cause away from their own districts to prepare to return at once to their own governments, in order that they may complete the family administration of the enrollment, and that the tilled lands may retain those belonging to them. Knowing that your city had need of provisions, I desire…"

By AD 6 wide-scale censuses were taken every 14 years; before that time, periodic censuses seem to have occurred at less regular intervals. They were important for evaluating taxation. They were generally conducted locally, so all local governments in all regions probably did not simultaneously implement Caesar’s decree.

There is also a reference to such a registration of all the Roman people not long before February 5, 2 BC, written by Caesar Augustus himself: "While I was administering my thirteenth consulship [2 BC] the senate and the equestrian order **and the entire Roman people** gave me the title Father of my Country” (Res Gestae 35). This award was given to Augustus on February 5, 2 BC, and therefore the registration of citizen approval must have taken place in 3 BC.

Orosius, in the 5th century, also said that Roman records of his time revealed that a census was held when Augustus was made "the first of men"—an apt description of his award "Father of the Country"—at a time when all the great nations gave an oath of obedience to Augustus (6:22, 7:2). Orosius dated the census to 3 BC.

[Boris Badanov]

Someone else wrote, about your statement: "There's even precedent for this in history. It apparently also happened in Egypt..."

I'm afraid this Egyptian example is more of an apologetic sleight of hand than a relevant precedent for the census described in Luke. Hoehner claims the Egyptian papyrus showed a prefect ordering "Egyptians to return to their ancestral homes so that a census could be taken", but that is not actually what the papyrus says. Instead, it just orders people to return to their own homes, not their "ancestral homes." Specifically, it says, "since registration by household is imminent, it is necessary to notify all who for any reason are absent from their districts to return to their own homes that they may carry out the ordinary business of registration..."


Do you have a link to the papyrus that I could read? That would be great.

It might depend on the translation perhaps? The quote that you reference fits much more in the ancestral homes idea.

[...] away from their own districts to prepare to return at once to their own governments, in order that they may complete the family administration of the enrollment [...]

It doesn't say "ancestral homes" but the need to go to an ancestral home is evident if your family is still there and you need to go to "your own government." I'm not saying this quotation is accurate, I'm just noticing a clear difference between your quote and the one quoted in the other user's comment. It's not quite a closed case.

Regardless, there's a lot we don't know about Joseph's living situation at the time. We don't know if he had to go to his "ancestral home" because he owned property there, because his family was there, because it was his usual residence... there are any number of reasons.

[jimwalton]

Here's a link to the Egyptian manuscript: http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/greek/census.html

It seems that people had to return to their homes where they owned property (not simply where they were born) for a tax census. You mentioned about Joseph's living situation, and we are unaware of most details of it. It's possible, however, if this as the same kind of census, that Joseph still owned property in Bethlehem.

But we also have to consider that while the Jews obeyed Roman law, they obeyed it in a Jewish way—according to Jewish customs. So long as Augustus obtained what he was after, the manner of obtaining it was immaterial. So much is unknown, but we have to admit that the biblical account isn't necessarily false, based on what know about Rome from the archaeological records.