Board index ‹ Salvation

[Head William]

Okay, now is my faith required for this salvation.

[jimwalton]

Absolutely. Ephesians 2.8-9 says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” Salvation is by grace through faith. Grace is the active principle (The free, spontaneous, absolute lovingkindness of God toward men); faith is the condition (not the grounds). Faith is our response to God’s initiative.

[Head William]

Are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John Old Testament Books?

Most every casual Bible student would know that the New Testament section of the Bible begins with the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We may also know that the origin of this division comes from the different languages from which they were translated.
However, naming the Greek portion of Scripture as the New Testament could possibly be the origin of many problems people have in understanding Jesus’ earthly ministry. For according to the Scripture, the majority of these four narratives of the life of our Lord Jesus are indeed Old Testament.

Hebrews 9:15-17 says:
“And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Testament that BY MEANS OF DEATH, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also OF NECESSITY BE THE DEATH OF THE TESTATOR. For A TESTAMENT IS OF FORCE AFTER MEN ARE DEAD: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”

Hebrews 9:15-17 explains that it was after Jesus’ death that the New Testament took force. Galatians 4:4 explains:
“…when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, MADE UNDER THE LAW,…”

The Mosaic Law was the order of the Old Covenant. According to Galatians 4:4, Jesus was born and lived under the Old Covenant. It was not until his death that the New Testament could be made available. Since the large majority of each book and Jesus’ entire earthly ministry occurred before his death then it should be considered that these four books are still in the context of the Old Covenant.
This would explain why Paul wrote that Jesus ‘was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made unto the Fathers’ (Romans 15:8).

This would also explain why Jesus operated according to the Old Testament:
Was circumcised (Luke 2:27)
Water Baptized (Matt 3:15)
Taught Conditional forgiveness (Matt 6:14)
Taught Levitical Sacrifice for Healing (Matt 8:4)
“Follow the commandments” (Mark 10:17-19)
“Obey the Pharisees” (Matt 23:2-3)
Observed feast days (Matt 26:17)

In order to better understand the Scriptures we need to understand the context of the passages we read. Therefore it is important to realize that the events leading up to the cross in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are under the Old Testament.

[jimwalton]

In some senses you are right about the covenant, and in some senses you are wrong. The goal of the covenant is that people can have a relationship with God. It’s difficult to have a relationship with someone you don’t know. If God’s nature is concealed or distorted, an honest relationship is impossible. And so God has undertaken as a primary objective a program of self-revelation. He wants people to know him. The mechanism driving this program is the covenant, and the purpose of the covenant is to reveal God. Jesus, according to Hebrews 1.2-3, is the revelation of God (also John 1.14), both in his life and in his death. Jesus is the new covenant even in his life, not just in his death.

But it’s also true, and this is the sense in which you are correct, that it was Jesus’ death that provided the ransom to set people free from their sins (Heb. 9.15-17, as you said).

Again, part of the idea of the new covenant is fulfilling the law, as I mentioned before (Matt. 5.17). Jesus fulfilled the law with his life, not just with his death. He shows us with his life that he fulfilled the law (Hebrews 8.6-13); with his death he put the new covenant into effect. The Jews had failed to keep the first covenant; it was Jesus during his life who fulfilled the covenant. His life is the new covenant; his death put it into effect. And then that covenant was written on their minds and hearts (Heb. 8.10) with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2). The ideal of the old covenant was now at last to be a fact.

Now let’s talk about Galatians 4.4. You are right that Jesus was born under the Law, and kept the Law. This is primarily showing that the Law was not contrary to the promises of God, and that the Law was not the enemy or the problem, since Jesus himself was born under the Law. Paul’s point in Galatians is that the Law wasn’t the problem, but Jesus wasn’t justified by the Law, despite that he kept it. The Law doesn’t justify. But it wasn’t evil; it had its place. But as far as the covenant is concerned, Jesus was the new covenant in two ways: (1) he fulfilled the Law negatively by having no personal knowledge of sin (2 Cor. 5.21), and (2) he fulfilled the law positively by obedience even unto death (Philippians 2.8).

Christ…
Was born under the Law (Gal. 4.4)
Perfectly obeyed the Law (John 8.46; 1 Pet. 2.22-23)
Was the minister of it
“This do” (Lk. 10.25-37)
He confirmed its promises with his life (Rom. 15.8)
He fulfilled its types in life and death (Heb. 9.11-16)
He bore its curse in our place (Gal. 3.13-14)
He made believers “sons” instead of “servants” (Gal. 4.1-7)
His blood in death mediated the new covenant (Heb. 8.6-13). He established the Law of Christ and the believer is is now in relationship to him (1 Cor. 9.21)

So what we must do to be saved involves both Jesus’ life and his death, his resurrection and his exaltation. We seek to follow him (be like him as he was in life), to accept forgiveness on the basis of his death, and to live in the newness of life based on his resurrection. All of that is the New Covenant. The entire New Testament, including the Gospels, is the narrative of the new covenant.

Hope this helps.

[Head William]

Ephesians 2:8-9New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

This is a quotation from Hab 2 v 4 .

FAITH is the Gift of God Hab 2 v 4 says its HIS FAITH in HIS FAITFULNESS. Galatians 2 v 20 says that its the FAITH OF GOD that saves . its not what we believe its what God believes that Jesus has done it for us.

Men have data , what we believe about God (stored knowledge from books etc )

God's knowledge is Da-at Elohim. that's the knowledge God believes about us in Jesus. One is data human , the other is da-at GODS
TRUTH. Man says its mans faith data , God says its HIS FAITH ...Da-at .,....see the difference.

Actually FAITH IS A PERSON . Put Jesus were you se the word faith for a greater revelation.

Galatians 2:16-20New International Version (NIV)

The NIV is wrong ... faith "IN" should be Faith "OF" genitive case , Genitive case means the faith is the source from GOD to man,.. for man. Faith is a person Jesus and its the faith OF Jesus.

compare these 5 bibles plus the GREEK VERSION
King James Bible ,
Bishops Bible ,
Websters Bible
Jubilee Bible.,
Mirror Bible
with Strongs Greek numbers I give you one example of the 5 versions but all 5 read the same . The NIV is the odd one out. There many errors in the NIV. but read on ,......
Gal 2:16 KnowingG1492 thatG3754 a manG444 is notG3756 justifiedG1344 byG1537 the worksG2041 of the law,G3551 butG3362 byG1223 the faithG4102 of JesusG2424 Christ,G5547 evenG2532 weG2249 have believedG4100 inG1519 JesusG2424 Christ,G5547 thatG2443 we might be justifiedG1344 byG1537 the faithG4102 of Christ,G5547 andG2532 notG3756 byG1537 the worksG2041 of the law:G3551 forG1360 byG1537 the worksG2041 of the lawG3551 shall noG3756 fleshG4561 be justified.G1344
Gal 2:17 ButG1161 if,G1487 while we seekG2212 to be justifiedG1344 byG1722 Christ,G5547 weG846 ourselves alsoG2532 are foundG2147 sinners,G268 is thereforeG687 ChristG5547 the ministerG1249 of sin?G266 God forbid.G1096 G3361
Gal 2:18 ForG1063 ifG1487 I buildG3618 againG3825 the thingsG5023 whichG3739 I destroyed,G2647 I makeG4921 myselfG1683 a transgressor.G3848
Gal 2:19 ForG1063 IG1473 throughG1223 the lawG3551 am deadG599 to the law,G3551 thatG2443 I might liveG2198 unto God.G2316
Gal 2:20 I am crucified withG4957 Christ:G5547 neverthelessG1161 I live;G2198 yet notG3765 I,G1473 butG1161 ChristG5547 livethG2198 inG1722 me:G1698 andG1161 the life whichG3739 I nowG3568 liveG2198 inG1722 the fleshG4561 I liveG2198 byG1722 the faithG4102 of(G3588) theG3588 SonG5207 of God,G2316 who lovedG25 me,G3165 andG2532 gaveG3860 himselfG1438 forG5228 me.G1700

[jimwalton]

Now you’re just cutting and pasting. What happened to our personal conversation?

I’m not convinced Eph. 2.8 is a quotation of Habakkuk 2.4. It could easily be regarded as an allusion to it, but Paul may have redirected the meaning of it for his particular point. While in Habakkuk the meaning of “faith” is most likely “faithfulness,” Paul is more likely using the term to describe trust, the act of embracing Christ as the ground of salvation. It is distinctly believing what God has done for us (grace).

Galatians 2.20. You have misunderstood the text. The genitive “of the Son of God” is an objective genitive. It’s not the faith of, or possessed by, the Son, but faith in the Son, with the Son as its object.

You say, “Actually, faith is a person.” “Faith” has many meanings in the New Testament, and we can’t just claim a blanket generalization for all of them. Sometimes it’s trust, other times faithfulness, other times a creed.

You say the NIV is wrong in translating “of” as “in” in Gal. 2.20, but as I said, it’s an objective genitive. Technically, a straight literal translation shows “of” (hence King James, Websters,etc.), since it is a genitive, but since it’s an objective genitive, “of” gives the wrong impression in English. That’s where “in” becomes truer to Paul’s intent in expressing in English what Paul is saying: “I have been crucified together with Christ, and I no longer continue to live; instead, Christ continues to live in me. And now the life that I continue to live in my body, I continue to live by faith that has the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself on my behalf, as its object.”

[Head William]

In Ireland there are 2000 different type church's, mainly catholic, free Presbyterian, anna Baptist. brethren, Pentecostal, quakers shakers and many more individual house groups, menonite type.,Cof England Cof Ireland. Church of Scotland. you name it we got it. They are all very religious judgemental and boring. They all preach similar to your beliefs. Repent ask forgiveness, come while you still can etc etc , so I'm hearing from you the same type of stuff youd get from ythe shakers turn or burn. repent and become holy confess, it goes on and on.

In regard to copy and paste , I think you have done some of the same copy and paste. loads of scripture etc why not just stick to one topic and share from the heart. in our own words. For example turn or burn , whats your belief , no scriptures please , just straight from the heart in your own words. you ask have you never been part of it? no ive never been part of turn or burn or confess to be holy, no.

So is it turn or burn gospel. from william

[jimwalton]

Good to hear from you again. Also glad to hear there are so many churches in Ireland. Over here we keep hearing that Christianity is very small in Europe and also England, Ireland, and Scotland. The churches probably all teach turn or burn because it’s the message of the Bible. They are trying to be true to the Word. They shouldn’t be judgmental, though. Jesus tells us not to be (Matthew 7.1-6). And as for boring, church isn’t supposed to be entertaining; it’s supposed to be worship. You go because it’s true, not because it’s fun.

You want to talk about turn or burn. What’s my belief? We were created to have a relationship with God. With God there is life, truth, grace, forgiveness, and love. But not everyone wants to have a relationship with God. Some don’t even believe he exists, despite the evidence. God doesn’t force us to love him — it wouldn’t be love if he did, either him loving us or us loving him. Some people want nothing to do with him, and they choose to separate from him. He will not stop them. Others are openly rebellious and defiant. For them there will be judgment, as any good judge punishes the defiant and rebellious. For those who take a stand as his enemies, he will treat them as such.

I don’t believe that hell is literal fire, because the Bible speaks of degrees of punishment (not levels of hell, as in Dante), but lesser punishments for lesser sin, and more severe punishment for more severe crimes against him. I believe that hell is separation from God, meaning absence of truth, grace, forgiveness, and love. C.S. Lewis, in his short book “The Great Divorce,” speaks of hell as like dismal human existence, where things don’t work right, people are nasty to each other, friendships are brittle, and existence is miserable — void of truth, grace, forgiveness, peace, love, etc.

It’s as if all of us humans are walking towards the end of life. At the end of life there are two doors, one that is marked “Eternity with God” and the other marked “Suit yourself.” Jesus stands at the door marked for God, continually inviting anybody who wants to enter there. But he can’t force anyone. He can express his love, his willingness to forgive, and his desire that you come. But each must make their own choice. For those who choose against him, they choose their fate and eternal destiny, such as it may be based on their lives. For those who are his enemies, he judges them according to their lives. For any and all who will come to him, he accepts them into relationship with himself. That’s what I think. How about yourself?

[Head William]

I'm going to guess you believe in substitutionary atonement. Did Christ die in my place intead of me, sort of Anselm theory (he was arch bishop of Canterbury). is that what substitution means. died in my place intead of me?

[jimwalton]

Yes, that’s what that means. You are the one who sinned and who deserves to die. Christ took your punishment for you, in your place, and died instead of you so that you could go free, should you so choose. The gift has been offered, you must receive it.