Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell

[The Shadow]

Why does hell have to be a place of eternal agony, torture, and torment? Most Christians I know say that Hell is a place of separation from God. Ok, I can accept that. They say people actually choose Hell over God, so it's not God sending them there. Ok, I'd argue against that but I'll go with it. What I don't get is why, if God gave us free will, would he punish us with literal eternal hellfire and agony for choosing to not be with Him? Why not just be like, "OK, you guys go hang out over there and I'll leave you alone." What's with the vindictive torture from a loving God?

[jimwalton]

There are also many theories from thinking Christians that possibly hell is not eternal for everyone there, but there may be future opportunities for some to be reconciled to God after appropriate punishment and as they continue to make spiritual choices. Hell is a difficult doctrine to sort out. Without a doubt there are verses that talk about eternal punishment, but they don't necessarily include all of those who are separated from God. There are verses that talk about God reconciling all things to himself (Rom. 11.15; 2 Cor. 5.19; Col. 1.20), and so some theologians think that God will continue his work of reconciliation even into eternity, such that those who "serve their time" will at a later date be reconciled with God ("reconciliationism"). There is another position called "semi-restorationism" where, after appropriate punishment, those who desire a relationship with God will be partially restored, and those who do not, even after punishment, will opt to remain separated. So hell is eternal, but not necessarily eternal for everyone. While the Bible speaks about eternity, possibly only those who stay eternally defiant will be eternally punished. Some even believe in annihilation. It's hard to know.

There are also degrees of punishment in hell; it's not "One Fire Fits All." People can be punished worse or less based on their lives and what they deserve.

I happen to be convinced hell is not literally fire, but the agony of true separation from God. I say that because fire doesn't have degrees of punishment, but hell does. Degrees of separation makes more sense to me than degrees of being burned. I believe hell is degrees of punishment, based on the sin (though not levels of hell, as in Dante. Ironically, though, even Dante said hell is an endless, hopeless conversation with oneself). Here's my proof:

- Mt. 11.22-24 – "more tolerable"
- Mt. 23.14 – "greater condemnation"
- Rev. 20.13 – "each in proportion to his works"
- Lk. 10.12 – "it will be more bearable for Sodom than for that town"
- Lk. 12.47-48 – beaten with few blows or more blows

You wonder, "if God gave us free will, would he punish us with literal eternal hellfire and agony for choosing to not be with Him?" No army general sanctions desertion. Desertion in some wars is a capital crime, but you want to be let off scott free, just because you have free will and chose it? Treason in most countries is a capital crime: rebel against the king and you lose your head. But you want to be allowed to choose treason against God, and he says, "OK, you guys go hang out over there and I'll leave you alone"? You commit treason and rebellion, and blame God for being vindictive. If you rebel against the king and commit treason, the army comes after you. What God does, though, is give you chance after chance to turn back to loyalty, to return to camp and all will be forgiven. As a matter of fact, he even sacrificed himself to pay whatever penalty you owe for your treason, died for you while you were still in rebellion, and still invites you back. If you stubbornly refuse, and slander him as being vindictive, you want him to turn a blind eye and be cool with that? What ensues then is anarchy, not benefit; abuse, not improvement. Any judge worth their salt judges wrong.

My bottom line is this: Those who turn away from God will be separated from the life of God. Though we can't be sure about the form or duration of that separation, this we can be sure of: it will be a horrible experience, and God will be fair about the form and duration of it. If you reject God, you take your chances.

[Hooray]

How is what you described at all "fair?" How, in any reality, is the god you're describing deserving of anybody's love or worship? I'm genuinely curious.

[jimwalton]

The first tier of consideration is "What is justice?" Any judge sits in his seat to acquit the good (the innocent) and to convict the guilty. One level of fairness in hell is that God is convicting the guilty.

A second tier of consideration is variations in justice. Our courts recognize different categories of murder because all are not equal: second-degree murder, first-degree murder, justifiable homicide, self-defense, vehicular manslaughter, etc. A good judge and jury take into consideration motives and circumstances. A second level of fairness is hell is that punishments are tempered to motives and circumstances.

A third tier of justice is that it's patently unfair for the guilty to go free and not receive appropriate punishment for what they have done. In no world is justice defined as universal amnesty. This third level of fairness is that hell exists as appropriate punishment for perpetrators, the guilty, rebels, disobedient, and the desperately treasonous.

I'm genuinely surprised that you think a God of justice, grace, mercy, fairness, reconciliation, and redemption is not deserving of anybody's love or worship. Perhaps you can explain why, in the face of the respect for humans and the fairness I described, you think God is abominable. I'm actually honestly curious as well.