Board index ‹ Salvation

[C Coles]

Did Christ die for all men, or did he die for just some men? 1 Cor 15:22; " as in Adam all died, so in Christ all are made alive, 'all' men definitely died in Adam, the same 'all' are now made alive in Christ. Now, 2 Cor 5:18,19—that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself,not imputing men's trespasses against them,, this says that God has put 'all' humanity into Christ 2000 yrs ago..what should I make of that verse? Your brother says it means universal salvation,and he does not believe in that. I do hope you respond to me.

[jimwalton]

I’m glad to respond, and we can dialogue back and forth about this as you wish. I always try to be totally honest in my answers, so here goes: I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but there is actually great theological debate about the very issue that you have raised.

The position that Christ died for the whole world is called “Universal Atonement,” or “Sublapsarianism.” It holds that God decided to provide salvation for all humanity, and then he elects some to receive it. This position is held by by Arminius and Calvin. The arguments supporting it are:

1. The Bible teaches, as you have noted, that God’s offer of salvation has been legitimately made to all. Jn. 1.29; 3.16-17; 2 Cor. 5.14-15; 1 Tim. 2.6; 4.10; Heb. 2.9; 10.29; 1 Jn. 2.1-2; Isa. 53.6; Rom. 14.15; 1 Cor. 8.11; Titus 2.11.
2. There would seem to be a contradiction if God loved the whole world but didn’t die for all of them. Jesus said that a person of true love dies for his friends.
3. Romans 5.8 is pretty clear: Christ died for sinners, with no distinction.

There are refutations of that position, as you might guess:

1. Most of the verses noted are speaking about believers.
2. Some of the passages are ambiguous.
3. If Christ died for the whole world, why are all not saved?

The other position is that Christ died for those who are going to be saved. This position is known by numerous names and slight variations: Limited Atonement, or Particularism; Supralapsarianism, or infralapsarianism. This position is held by St. Augustine, John Calvin’s followers (a position now known as Calvinism), and others. The arguments supporting it are:

1. The Bible teaches, as you have noted, that Christ died for his own. Mt. 1.21; 20.28; Mk. 10.45; John 10; 15.13; 17.9; Acts 20.28; Eph. 5.25; Rom. 8.28-33; 2 Tim. 1.9.
2. It follows from Old Testament teachings of the Aaronic priesthood and the sacrifices for Israel
3. Christ intercedes in prayer for those who are his own
4. The imagery of Jesus giving his life as a ransom for many suggests limited atonement.
it would seem contradictory that if God from eternity determined to save one portion of the human race and not another, that the plan of salvation had equal reference to both categories.

And, here we go again, there are refutations to that position:

1. Most of these verses are not as confining as they seem on the surface
2. The argument from history is not ultimately persuasive. A historical link doesn’t establish an indisputable theological connection.
3. if Christ died only for the elect, hell is a very unjust result for those who don’t believe.

As is easy to conclude, Christians get pretty testy in discussing this with each other. It’s a conundrum that doesn’t seem solvable. We can be sure that the Bible doesn’t teach universal salvation (everyone gets saved no matter what; we all end up in heaven). But whether Jesus died for his elect or for all seems to be up for grabs (just being honest). In this case, each person must study the Scriptures to discern what their own position is, but understand that well-meaning Christians can arrive at a different conclusion. Our spirit of grace lets us worship in the same room despite our differences of theological opinion.

I’m willing to discuss this more with you, digesting various verses and stances, but possibly I’ve given you enough to get started (in verses and labels) to pursue it somewhat yourself. Feel free to write back.

[C Coles]

Thank you for taking time to reply.

For those who say,"Christ only died for some men/or only for those who believe", it is my belief, based upon a study of the subject, not only upon writings by various authors, and listening to the subject being preached from pulpits throughout the land, I can safely say it is a wrong teaching regarding the gospel.

The gospel is good news for all mankind, we must remember Peter who moved in unbelief,and look also at doubting Thomas. God has to be the great Saviour of the world. 2 Cor 5 states he reconciled all men to himself in Christ on the cross. all men are saved already, they now must reconcile themselves to their creator,he has reconciled himself to them.

It is my view that this verse is the very core of the gospel,and in saying that,we have a gospel to offer the world.

To put forth a gospel that Christ only died for some, is not a gospel. Calvin and many early 'leaders' were wrong in their exegeses of scripture.

[jimwalton]

Good to hear from you, C. I am actually in agreement with you and believe that Christ died for the whole world. I am not of the theology that Christ died only for the elect. There are many well-meaning Christians (including one of my brothers), well-studied in the Word (that same brother), who take that latter position, but I am not one of them. I was just trying to be honest in my answer and let you know the span of positions on your question. I don’t believe in universal salvation, but salvation by grace through faith because of the blood of Christ. Christ’s atoning death is for all but will only be appropriated by those who respond in faith to his gracious invitation.

Please be careful who you exclude from the kingdom based on a theological position. Those who have the nature of Christ in them are the ones who will pass through the gates of heaven. Theological errors can at times pose a genuine barrier to that eternal destiny, but not all theological differences create a “wrong teaching”. While it’s obvious you and I disagree with those who take the position of Limited Atonement, and believe them to be wrong, we must still move forward with a heart of unity in the body of Christ.

[C Coles]

Dear Jim,

Took a long time to get back to you. Thank you for your reply.

You remark that, "we can be sure that the bible doesn't teach universal salvation," yet there are quite a lot of verses that state that He died for the whole world, once for all, as the hymn goes.

The veil that hide the most holy of holies, this veil always remained in place throughout the entire time the Israelites held their place as the only ones who had access to God via the temple. Yet when Christ died on Calvery, is it not written that the veil was rent in two? Which surely must mean that all men now live before the Lord. Since God is not going to erect the veil again, this must mean that this state will continue forever? Would you agree?

Awaiting your reply.

[jimwalton]

Hello, C. Thank you for writing. You are right that there are quite a lot of verses that state that Jesus died for the whole world, but the teaching of Scripture surrounding those verses is that the death of Christ only becomes effective for some, for those who believe in Christ and accept his gift of grace by faith. The Gospel of John is loaded with teachings about those who belong to light, and those who belong to darkness. Those who walk in the light have come to the place of belief, while those who still walk in darkness do not believe. Romans strongly makes the identical point—how faith is the necessary step to make the death of Christ effective for one’s salvation. This is not a “work’ that humans must do to earn some credit with God but a response of repentance and belief that opens the heart for Christ’s work of redemption.

The veil of the Temple was truly torn in two at the death of Christ. Matthew 27.51 records it in glorious splendor, as does Mark & Luke. The veil restricted access to God (the most sacred space of the Temple), as you said. Now access to God would be on the basis of the person of Christ, his death and resurrection, and not by the former covenant of the Law. Hebrews 10.19-20. It is now not only the priest who can enter the Most Holy Place, but by the blood of Jesus and his broken body, all of us who believe in His name have complete access to the presence of God. The author of Hebrews makes it just as clear as John and Paul did that this access is granted to those who are in Christ (Heb. 3.1; 9.15, etc.).

You are certainly right that this state will continue forever. Christ only had to die once, and the access his death and resurrection have procured will never be revoked.

[C Coles]

Dear Jim,

Of all the billions of people who have ever lived, will only a select number “make it to a better place” and every single other person suffer in torment and punishment forever?

Has God created millions of people over tens of thousands of years who are going to spend eternity in anguish? Can God do this, or even allow this, and still claim to be a loving God?

If there are only a select few who go to heaven, which is more terrifying to fathom: the billions who burn forever or the few who escape this fate? How does a person end up being one of the few? What about those who have never heard the gospel? Were will they be when they die?
The following verses suggest differently.

2 Cor 5: 19 That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and has committed the message of reconciliation to us.

Consider Colossians: Having been buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

It would seem man cannot do anything to save himself the it was all done by God in Christ 200 yrs ago. As for asking man to open up his heart I can't see how that would be possible for man to do, or even what it would achieve, since death and resurrection are fundamental to salvation.
So all men have died and have been resurrected, they just have to be told that this is so. Living in resurrected life, being transformed by the renewing of their minds to this reality,I believe is what Paul tends to put forth in his message.

[jimwalton]

The Christian concept of hell comes primarily from the teachings of Jesus, followed by some references in Paul’s letters. When the Old Testament saints spoke of an afterlife, they did so in similar terms (Daniel 12.2, for instance). My beliefs about hell don’t come from my own mind or thoughts, but trying to discern the revelation of God that we have been given.

Will only a select number make it to a better place? Jesus said so in Matthew 7.13-14: Many walk the road that leads to destruction, but few find the gate leading to eternal life. Jesus was questioned about it specifically in Luke 13.23: “Lord, are only a small number of people going to be saved?” His answer was the same: Many may try to enter, but not many will enter.

Jesus’ answer is no surprise, but it’s shocking to our culture of 2016: “Yes. Only a few people are going to be saved. The door is narrow, and few will find it. But know this: anyone who wants to may come. Many will try to come by other religions, or by their own good works, but they will not be admitted.”

Not only is there a limited number, but a limited time. There are no second chances, no do-overs, and no reincarnation. But why not? Why not let them in once they have seen the truth? If he loves everyone and doesn’t want anyone to perish, you’d think any and every opportunity to let them in would be gladly granted, and it will. But here, after the fact, one can see that their motive is not love or even faith. They are acting out of self-interest and for self-preservation only, and self is the enemy of God. It would be like the groom at the altar, when the preacher says, “Do you take this woman to be your lawfully wedded wife,” answers: “I couldn’t find anybody else, so I guess so.” You know, that isn’t it, and he’s going to find himself standing alone at the altar.

Jesus says people will protest, as if God owes them (Luke 13.26). This is an indicator, by their own admission and testimony, that they heard the message, understood it, and had a fair chance to respond in the proper way by the proper evidence by the proper motives. They were there. They saw. They heard. Yet they didn’t respond.

Jesus rejects those who reject him first. One thing can be said of Jesus: he doesn't let anyone pull one over on him, and he doesn’t pull any punches. Always fair, this guy.

I can only teach what the Bible teaches.

But will the others suffer in torment and punishment forever? Not necessarily. There are also many theories from thinking Christians that possibly hell is not eternal for everyone there, but there may be future opportunities for some to be reconciled to God after appropriate punishment and as they continue to make spiritual choices. Hell is a difficult doctrine to sort out. Without a doubt there are verses that talk about eternal punishment, but they don't necessarily include all of those who are separated from God. There are verses that talk about God reconciling all things to himself, as you have mentioned (Rom. 11.15; 2 Cor. 5.19; Col. 1.20), and so some theologians think that God will continue his work of reconciliation even into the afterlife, such that those who "serve their time" will at a later date be reconciled with God ("reconciliationism"). There is another position called "semi-restorationism" where, after appropriate punishment, those who desire a relationship with God will be partially restored, and those who do not, even after punishment, will opt to remain separated. So hell is eternal, but not necessarily eternal for everyone. While the Bible speaks about eternity, possibly only those who stay eternally defiant will be eternally punished. Some, including John Stott, even believe in annihilation. It's hard to know. So it's not necessarily true that "all these millions will spend eternity in anguish.” God will be fair.

There are also degrees of punishment in hell; it's not "One Fire Fits All." People can be punished worse or less based on their lives and what they deserve, meaning that hell doesn't necessarily mean eternal ("unjust") punishment, but it's very possible that the punishment will fit the crime. Those who are guilty of eternal sin will be eternally punished; those who are not will still be fairly punished for what they did do, and then that will end.

I happen to be convinced hell is not literally fire, but the agony of true separation from God. I say that because fire doesn't have degrees of punishment, but hell does. Degrees of separation makes more sense to me than degrees of being burned. I believe hell is degrees of punishment, based on the sin (though not levels of hell, as in Dante. Ironically, though, even Dante said hell is an endless, hopeless conversation with oneself). Here's my proof:

- Mt. 11.22-24 – "more tolerable"
- Mt. 23.14 – "greater condemnation"
- Rev. 20.13 – "each in proportion to his works"
- Lk. 10.12 – "it will be more bearable for Sodom than for that town"
- Lk. 12.47-48 – beaten with few blows or more blows

My bottom line is this: Those who turn away from God will be separated from the life of God. Though we can't be sure about the form or duration of that separation, this we can be sure of: it will be a horrible experience, and God will be fair about the form and duration of it. If you willingly reject God, you take your chances.

How does one end up being one of the few? We need to go directly to the words of Jesus himself. He was also directly asked this question, on two occasions. Jesus gave these answers:

1. Love God with all that you are
2. Love your neighbor
3. Do God’s will by obeying his moral commands
4. Be willing, if he asked, to drop everything and leave it behind to follow him.

Yes, people are called to believe, but he called them to abandon their own agendas and their own reasonings and to trust him radically. He called for both belief and action. Yes, believe in Jesus. Yes, commit your life to him. Then, empowered by God’s grace, embark on your journey of discipleship in which you do these four things: love God with all that you are, love your neighbor, do good, and do all this your whole life, whatever the cost or sacrifice. That’s how one ends up being one of the few.

2 Corinthians 5.19. Beautiful verse, isn’t it. God has been involved in reconciling the world to himself since the first sin. That’s what he was doing when he gave his Son up for us all. I believe, as I have mentioned, that Christ died for the whole world. On the surface this sounds like universalism, but universalism is absent in Jesus’ teachings. Not only that, but Jesus’ ministry relentlessly focuses on the last judgment, and the division of the righteous (to life) from the unrighteous (to destruction). The reconciliation is said to be effected by the cross for all men. Jesus’ death for us becomes effective if we make our peace with God (Rom. 8.28-32). When God is said to forgive men (not counting people’s sins against them), it of course does not mean that all men, penitent and impenitent, believing and unbelieving, are forgiven; but here, as before, the class of beings is indicated towards whom forgiveness is exercised. It’s nonsensical to make an appeal to call people to reconciliation (2 Cor. 5.20) if they are all going to be automatically reconciled no matter what. We have to make sure we are looking at the whole text.

It’s true that man cannot do anything to save himself, as you said. It was all done by God 2000 years ago. But the only people who live in the newness of life are those who have died to sin, been baptized into the death of Christ Jesus, and been raised to new life in him, just as in says in Romans 6.1-4.

All men have not died and been resurrected, but only those who are in Christ.

[C Coles]

Dear Jim,

1 Cor.15:55, Death, where is thy sting? So we can take from this statement that death has lost its poisonous blow to all living things. The living will not die from death. Humanity will not die from death.

Rev 1:18. I am he that liveth,and am alive forevermore, and have the keys of death and hell,

2 Cor 5:19, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself,not imputing their trespasses against them,

Now if God was in Christ at Calvery,and Christ has now the keys of death and hell, and he died for us, who's the winner here, we humanity, we're the winners, the victors in this great event

Over death and hell. Why, is there a part of Christ that still remains in hell,that still remains in death. When he rose from the grave he returned everything back to God the Father, the one who created all things, and to whom all things belong. Was his work on Calvery not successful for all the world,I believe it was very successful.

The fears and doubts lie within the uninformed mind, the mind that listens to false teaching is especially prone to tormenting thoughts of death and life thereafter. The battle ground Is the mind. 1 Peter 1:13 wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, -this is an idiom, gird, to gird something, means to strengthen,- loins,this was/is what is used to cover, like clothing.- be sober, so the thoughts need to be strengthened and protected or covered over with good strong thoughts.

All men,
Ps 68:18
Eph 4:8
When he ascended on high,he led captivity captive,and gave gifts unto men.
It doesn't say here, he gave gifts unto believers,or some men.

Ps 68:18 says, the rebellious also that he might dwell among them...
Now if He was going to send men to a lost eternity why would he give them gifts, and dwell among them. This is all men throughout all ages,there will always new gifts for mankind, mankinds abilities will never be stagnant on this earth, because of Christ on
Calvery on their behalf.

[jimwalton]

1 Cor. 15.55. We can NOT take from this statement that death has lost its poisonous blow to all living things. Paul is specifically and unquestionably talking about the resurrection of the righteous. He is talking to brothers—Christians (15.1), to people who have received the gift of salvation (15.1), those who are saved (15.2), to those who have responded with faith (15.17), to those who are in Christ (15.18).

Rev. 1.18. No problems here. Jesus lives eternally, and he has the keys of death and hell. The “keys” is his power and authority over their domain. Death is not more powerful than Jesus. He has the power and authority to summon his own to resurrection life.

2 Cor. 5.19. “The world” means humankind. This doesn’t mean “convert,” or render friendly to himself. What follows this verse is not that the whole world was converted. God has been engaged in reconciling the world from the very beginning. Taking the whole testimony of Scripture, we know this doesn’t mean universal salvation, or Jesus would never have breathed a word about judgment. And it’s true that the death of Christ removes the penalty of sin, but for those who are in Christ. If everyone is to be saved, “believers” and “unbelievers” (2 Cor. 6.14-18 )is meaningless nonsense.

Those who are “in Christ” are the winners, not all humanity.

“Is there a part of Christ that still remains in hell, that still remains in death?” No, not at all. Will he reconcile all things back to the Father? Yes, but that doesn’t mean they will join him in life. It means God’s rule will be unmediated, direct, and unchallenged. It is a statement describing the restored order, the reconciliation of all things. No longer will there be the rift between God and everything in the cosmos that sin brought about, but when death—as representative of the effect of sin—is destroyed, the whole cosmos will be right, and right with Him again. This does not necessarily preclude eternal punishment, because the verses speaking of defeat, destruction, and subjection in the immediate context of 1 Corinthians 15.28 seems to allow hell to be part of the grander whole. That’s not just my opinion, but what the Scripture says.

You said, "The fears and doubts lie within the uninformed mind, the mind that listens to false teaching is especially prone to tormenting thoughts of death and life thereafter. The battle ground Is the mind. 1 Peter 1:13 wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, -this is an idiom, gird, to gird something, means to strengthen,- loins,this was/is what is used to cover, like clothing.- be sober, so the thoughts need to be strengthened and protected or covered over with good strong thoughts."

I agree with this completely.

Psalm 68.18; Eph. 4.8. Who are the captives? That we must interpret. But since he’s talking about the giving of spiritual gifts and the equipping of the saints, it stands to reason that the captive are the saints. And the text is about giving gifts to believers, for it is addressed to those who have received a calling (4.1, 4). Context always matters.

Ps. 68.18. The psalmist makes a clear distinction between the righteous (3) and the rebellious (6), between the righteous and God’s enemies (1) who are the wicked (2). In Psalm 68.18 God received gifts even from the rebellious, but they are not his people. Context always matters.

“Now if He was going to send men to a lot eternity, why would he give them gifts.”

He didn’t. Ps. 68.18 says he received gifts.

Universal salvation is not a biblical teaching. Christ speaks authoritatively about judgment, as do many other biblical writers. Verses have to be interpreted within their context, or we make the Bible say whatever we want.