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[LoveAndTruth]

On a post made by Olivia on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:23 pm, about free will and God knowing what everyone will do, a response was given that stated that God does know all that we will do and that we have free will. I believe that that really is the case - that we have free will and God knows all that we will do. For me, that triggers the following train of thought: "if, from even before someone is created, God knows all that that person will do/say/think/believe/etc., then God should know whether that person will believe in Jesus Christ before that person is even created. Then, if someone does not believe in Jesus Christ before he/she dies, then God knew from before that person was created that he/she was going to die with no belief in Christ. So is that God allows someone to be created knowing that that person would not make it into heaven? I struggle with this because it seems somewhat harsh that God will create a person (or the person's soul/spirit) knowing that that soul/spirit will spend eternity in hell.

[LoveAndTruth]

What are your thoughts on the post above?

[jimwalton]

I believe that the mistake you're making is in thinking that God's omniscience means that our lives are determined, i.e., I really don't have free will. "If God knows I'll never become born again, then He is a cruel immoral monster for letting me come into this life, only to die and enter a Christliness eternity of punishment." Two truths of the Bible contradict this thought:

1. God's knowledge is not causative, meaning it doesn't make you do anything. I may know lots about you, but my knowledge doesn't make you do anything. You still have free will to make your own choices. But suppose I'm ten times as smart as I really am—now does it force you to make certain decisions? Not at all. Suppose I'm 100 times as smart. It still doesn't make you do anything. Suppose I'm omniscient? It still doesn't make you do anything. Knowledge is impotent unless there is some power to put it into action, but in that case it's not my knowledge that makes you do those things, but some power I'm exerting.

God's knowledge never makes you do anything. The Bible teaches quite clearly that we have free will, and that we always have free will, no matter what God knows. Read Jeremiah 18.1-12. God makes pronouncements, but we are still free to make our own decisions.

Therefore I can say...

2. We are not determined (no choices) creatures. That's not how God mades us, and it's never the way God treats us. We are not robots, tied up by his knowledge of what we will do.

OK, but if God KNOWS a person will NEVER turn, isn't that cruelty to allow that person to be born? No, for several reasons:

1. Sometimes one person's sin motivates another person to come to God. We know that God is able to use the just and the unjust for his purposes. A person's sin, even while God is wooing that person to get him to come to salvation, can still be used by God to bring others to him. There is possibly still a point to that person's existence in the plan of salvation.

You mean God is just USING that person and then throwing him away? God may use him, but remember the person always has a choice to turn to salvation. God is never responsible for a person's damnation—rejecting God is always a personal, human choice.

2. Despite what evangelicals and fundamentalists teach, the doctrine of hell is very much debated. There are many theories from thinking Christians that possibly hell is not eternal for everyone there, but there may be future opportunities for some to be reconciled to God after appropriate punishment and as they continue to make spiritual choices. Hell is a difficult doctrine to sort out. I know Hebrews says that it's appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment. And that's true. I don't disagree with that (how could I? It's the Bible.) But doesn't that mean every person who is punished received eternal punishment? Just trying to be honest here. Without a doubt there are verses that talk about eternal punishment, but they don't necessarily include all of those who are separated from God. There are verses that talk about God reconciling all things to himself (Rom. 11.15; 2 Cor. 5.19; Col. 1.20), and so some theologians think that God will continue his work of reconciliation even into the afterlife, such that those who "serve their time" (after that the judgment) will at a later date be reconciled with God ("reconciliationism"). There is another position called "semi-restorationism" where, after appropriate punishment, those who desire a relationship with God will be partially restored, and those who do not, even after punishment, will opt to remain separated. So hell is eternal, but not necessarily eternal for everyone. While the Bible speaks about eternity, possibly only those who stay eternally defiant will be eternally punished. Some even believe in annihilation. It's hard to know. My bottom line is this: Those who turn away from God will be separated from the life of God. We call that "hell." Though we can't be sure about the form or duration of that separation, this we can be sure of: it will be a horrible experience, and God will be fair about the form and duration of it. If you reject God, you take your chances.

Even though God does ultimately know who will turn to him and who won't...

1. Those people always have a fair chance to make their own decisions, and they will be held accountable for their decisions.
2. God doesn't force anyone in either direction, even though he is omniscient. His omniscience isn't causative; instead, people are responsible for their own eternal decisions.
3. God can even use condemned sinners to accomplish his purposes in others.
4. God has the right to operate even after death to accomplish his purposes. It's not my place to tell him he's not allowed to do that. See the parables of the workers in the vineyard in Matt. 20.1-16.

God is going to be fair; I'm certain of it. While with our partial information it's tough to sort it all out, we've been given enough information to see various possibilities and rest in the assurance of God's fairness with each and every individual. Nor is God cruel; He doesn't bring people into this life just to send them to hell. That isn't going to happen. People who reject God will choose hell, and who knows what actions He may or may not take afterwards. Frankly, if God leaves them in hell for eternity, I'm sure He has a good reason, and if He gives them a chance, somehow, to get out, I won't complain at his forgiving grace.

Talk to me more. I know I've said some hard things.

[LoveAndTruth]

In regards to first part of your response, I understand what you are saying about God's knowledge not being causative and, just to clarify, I don't think that His omniscience means that our lives are determined. My questions come from the fact there are people who will die not accepting Jesus as their Lord; my understanding of God is that He would have known that those people would have died without accepting Jesus as their Lord. Here, my point is that such people are going to exist - that is more or less fact. It also happens that God knows these people will exist. Anyways, we can proceed with the two truths of the Bible that you stated in the start of your response - no disagreement from me there.

So on the second part of your response:
1. Again, I am in agreement with you here. I do believe that God can use another's sin to bring others to salvation. And I do believe that the person (whose sin is being used) has the choice to repent and turn to Christ. That being said, there are two scenario's that spawn from that choice:
a. The person chooses to turn to Christ and he/she is saved and goes to heaven.
b. The person chooses not to turn to Christ and he/she (as far as I've been told) goes to hell for eternity.
But the issue that I "struggle with" is only related to scenario b. So while what you have written here ( in part 1. of the second part of your response) is insightful, it hasn't really helped to clarify much in regards to my main issue.

2. The discussion started with "Despite what..." gives a lot more of type of insight that I was looking for. Even though the idea that hell may not be eternal for some is still something that is being debated, for me it is a more palatable idea than the idea of hell being permanent. The reason the former idea is more palatable for me is that I believe that God is Loving and cares for every human that he creates - I mean, as John 3:16 says, "He loved the world so much..." that he gave us a path to salvation in lieu of our penchant for sinning. And there are numerous other parts scripture that speaks towards God's love for us and wanting us to be in heaven with him. Further more, in 1 Corinthians, one of the qualities of love listed is that it "forgives". The parts of scripture I have quoted are pretty cliche, mainly because that's what I remember off the top of my head. However, my understanding of God's love for us (that of a parent's loves for his/her child) is rooted in more than the commonly quoted Bible verses. And so I don't think that an Earthly parent, who physically created and is responsible for raising a child, will want to punish their child with the greatest pain for an eternity - that's not love (in my view). In the same way, it seems out of character (given my understand of who God is) for Him to spiritually create someone, with knowledge of the decisions that the person will make and then allow the person to be punished for eternity; especially given that God has the ultimate say in how we are made and what comes into our lives that affects the way we make decisions.


So given what I just wrote, I think that it would very useful if you can address the following:
What is your understanding of God? What is your understanding of His Love for us and what that love should look like? What feedback do you have for me in regards to my understanding of God and his love for us?
Also, at this point, I wonder about the more technical aspects of our spirituality. For instances, I think that a lot of the decisions we make are determined by our life experiences and the way we are made. Our life experiences and the way we are made are determined by inevitably by God - we, as physical humans, can't control the parents we are born to, therefore we can't control the way our brain naturally works and the values our parents raise us with. And while I still say that we have free will, I question whether that free will lies with the physical human or spiritual person that is "in" the physical human. And to me, all this makes a bit more sense if the free will lies with the spiritual person. And so if that is the case, what is the nature of how we as spiritual beings are created and of how we as spiritual beings are interacting with our physical bodies - what is the spirit? That is an example of what crosses my mind.


Thanks for your response so far. I really appreciate what you are doing here with website. It very much needed and relevant in today's world.

[jimwalton]

My understanding of God's love: It's obvious from Scripture that God loves each and every person (Jn. 3.16; Rom. 5.8), even while we are separated from Him and in rebellion. That's a given. What that love means is that (1) He shares grace with you every day (rain, health, sunshine), (2) He is always drawing people to himself, every person, all the time (Jn. 12.32), and (3) His goal is nothing short of the reconciliation of all things to Himself (2 Cor. 5.19), and (4) It is not God's desire that anyone suffer in hell (2 Pet. 3.9). Yet these items must all be conditioned by the certainty that universalism is an absolutely untenable doctrine. It doesn't mean all will be saved.

How do we explain that? His love reaches out to each individual, but it cannot force. God cannot overpower your free will without your permission (you using your free will to give him control). Despite His overwhelming great love, each person must make their own decision to follow or rebel. For those who choose to follow, his love takes on a new form: a commitment to sanctify you for your ultimate salvation, and to protect your heart against spiritual forces that would destroy you—meaning He turns his wrath against those in rebellion. Here's a tautology, but a plausible one: He loves the rebels and continues to do everything possible to pull them to Himself, but He also works against their rebellious spiritual efforts by visiting his judgment (wrath) on them. An illustration of that would be the American Civil War, with brother fighting against brother. I love you, but you raise you raise your gun against me, and I'll shoot to kill. God loves His own with a different love than He loves the world, and He will protect His own and judge the rebels.

Though 2 Corinthians 5.19 says God is reconciling the world to Himself, but that doesn't mean all will be saved. For instance, He will reconcile the devil and his angels to himself because their knee will bow to him (Phil. 2.10-11), and then they will be relegated to their just punishment. Reconciliation doesn't always mean friendship, but the making right of all things. God has always been working to reconcile the world to Himself, and that reconciliation found perfection in the death of Christ. It doesn't mean He is converting the whole world (universalism), but that the path of reconciliation was built on the blood of Jesus. What Jesus did stands to our credit (Rom. 8.32) if we make our peace with God.

Where it becomes more fair (and perhaps in more direct response to your concerns) is the thought that some theologians have that this reconciling work of God will continue even after death. People will most definitely experience appropriate punishment for their sin and rebellion, but it will vary according to what the person has done. I believe hell is degrees of punishment, based on the sin (though not levels of hell, as in Dante. Ironically, though, even Dante said hell is an endless, hopeless conversation with oneself). Here's my proof:

- Mt. 11.22-24 – "more tolerable"
- Mt. 23.14 – "greater condemnation"
- Rev. 20.13 – "each in proportion to his works"
- Lk. 10.12 – "it will be more bearable for Sodom than for that town"
- Lk. 12.47-48 – beaten with few blows or more blows

Is it possible that, after appropriate judgment (for all people will face the Lord's judgment), some will then enter heaven, though in a different state than they would have if they had been lovers of God? This is the position of reconciliationism and of semi-restorationism. Shawn Bawulski explains that in reconciling the world to Himself, God will restore order and balance; everything will be just. No longer will there be a rift between God and the cosmos. "This does not necessarily preclude eternal punishment, because the verse speaking of defeat, destruction, and subjection in the immediate context [of 1 Cor. 15.28] seems to allow hell to be part of the grander whole." God still has a right to judge those who continue in their rebellion, and for them hell will be eternal. "This is about the restored order—the reconciliation of all things, but does not of necessity entail universal salvation. The reprobate will be participants, but by some means other than salvation. They will participate by their punishment and defeat, while not continuing in rebellion and sin."

As far as your comments about our spirituality, I agree with you that we are the products of our upbringing and nature (personality). Our decisions are greatly determined by our life experiences—it's undeniable. But God (1) never intended for us to be clones of each other, for their is value in diversity, and (2) no experience or personality trait need be a detriment in the hands of God.

What is the spirit? Some people believe in monism: we are unified individuals. Some believe we are bipartite: body and soul (spirit), and some believe we are tripartite (body, soul, spirit). It depends what you mean by spirit. The biblical writers don't use these words technically enough for us to get a firm grasp on our construction. We do know that we have physical capacities and spiritual capacities, but the relationship between them in our beings is hugely debated. We have free will in all areas of our being, whether body, soul, or spirit; free will is pervasive to our nature. I guess we need to talk further about this when I learn what you mean by "spirit".

[LoveAndTruth]

By spirit, I mean that part of us that will go to heaven when we die. Possibly that part of us that existed before we came into our body. Basically, that part of us that exists in the absence of our body.

[jimwalton]

It's very difficult to nail down how we are composed as humans. Christians generally take one of three position: monism, dualism, and tripartite, and they each offer Scriptures to support their positions. Monists assert that humans don't have souls, but that we are souls (Gn. 2.7). Dualists claim we are body and spirit, and tripartites that we are body, soul, and spirit. I was just reading a fat book by N.T. Wright, and he (if I am understanding him correctly) thinks it's pure nonsense that Christians can believe in anything but monism. We are a unified person, and there are no such "separations". Other theologians, obviously, take other positions.

In that mix, of course, is also science and scientific speculation. The whole idea of part of us going to heaven and later being joined by a recreated resurrection body views time as linear, but time just may not be linear. Maybe time is a much fuller construct that scientists and philosophers are now just figuring out. C.S. Lewis enjoyed toying with the idea of time in his unfinished book The Dark Tower.

All I'm saying is that it's very difficult to take a firm stand on the nature of man with regard to body, soul, and spirit. Let's keep talking.