Board index ‹ Salvation

[Shifty Eyes]

Can I ask you a very simple question? Does God want you to be punished with death for your sins? or does he not want you to be punished with death for your sins?

[jimwalton]

That's a trick question—not so simple. Death is the only and inevitable consequence for sin. It has nothing to do with whether God wants it or not. It's part of the immutable character of the universe that if something is separated from life, death is the result. It's not a matter of, "Well, do I want death to come from this or not?" It's like dropping a ball from the roof and asking, "Do I want this to fall or not?" It'll fall no matter what you want.

God doesn't want anyone to have to die for their sins, and that's why he provided a substitute. Death is going to result no matter what, so the strategy he took was to absorb that punishment in our place.

[Shifty Eyes]

This is exactly what I meant when I said that you are trying to distance God from the entity that is demanding we must be punished for our actions in the first place and the entity that is willing to punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.

We sin, and as punishment, somebody must get separated from life. God didn't make the universe that way, that's just the way it is. God's hands are tied.

I mean, it'd be fine if you actually believe that God can be backed into a corner like this, but something tells me that you don't legitimately believe that.

[jimwalton]

God's not backed into a corner. That's just the thing. He knew exactly what to do to rectify the problem, and his plan deals with the problem perfectly.

[Shifty Eyes]

If God doesn't want to punish anybody with separation from life because you sinned, but the universe is forcing him to, that means God is being backed into a corner.

Or are you saying that, while God doesn't want you to be punished with separation from life because you sinned, he does want somebody to be punished with separation from life because you sinned?

[jimwalton]

I always fear to use analogies with you, but I'll try one that I hopefully won't regret. God's not backed into a corner because when he created the world, he made a door in that corner. There's a door in every corner. There are doors along the walls, trap doors in the floor, and ports in the ceiling. He's never trapped. Sin causes death, but there's a way out. We can't free ourselves, but God can free us; he has the keys of death and hell, and so he can open the door and get us out.

[Shifty Eyes]

You didn't answer my question. Does God want somebody else to be punished with separation from life because you sinned? Does he want anybody to need to be punished with separation from life because you sinned? Does he want to punish himself with separation from life because you sinned?

If he doesn't want to do any of those things but the universe is forcing him to, then he is being backed into a corner. He is being forced to do something that he doesn't want to do.

If he doesn't want anybody to be punished with separation from life because you sinned, then why doesn't he make it so?

[jimwalton]

I know I didn't answer it, because you're asking the wrong questions. it's like Hillary Clinton on trial for the Benghazi debacle, and someone asking where they ate lunch that day.

You seem to think that God either wants somebody to be punished (oh boy, oh boy, I get to whip somebody!), that he doesn't want anybody to be punished (I don't care about justice, let's just have a picnic!), or does he want to punish himself (I'm a masochist and I live to injure myself!). These all miss the point of what was going on, and that's why I'm not answering. If I answer one of your questions, it will lead you in the wrong direction of understanding.

Sin had its own consequences. You can't say God wanted to punish someone or didn't want to punish someone or wanted to punish himself. Those are all misleading. And though sin had its own consequences, God was not trapped by them, but had an effective plan to disarm those consequences.

And it's not a matter of "he doesn't want anybody to be punished...because you sinned," because there are inevitable consequences to sin that have nothing to do with what God "wants".

[Shifty Eyes]

Are the "inevitable consequences" of sin what God wants them to be? They would have to be, right? Why would God allow the consequences of sin to be something other that what he wants them to be?

Now let's look at what's actually going on. You sinned. Does God want the consequences of your actions to be:

a) for you to be punished with separation from life?

b) for someone else to be punished with separation from life?

c) for nobody to be punished with separation from life?

This is not me asking you what you ate for lunch. This is a very enlightening question that would reveal to me something about God's character that I am very curious about. Will you not humor me?

[jimwalton]

I've been trying to humor you, and I've explained this about 8 times, so I'm not sure what else to say.

> Are the "inevitable consequences" of sin what God wants them to be?

For the 9th time, no. They are what they are. God did not mandate what the spiritual consequences of sin would be. If you remove something from the sphere of life, it is in the sphere of death. God didn't choose that, it's the only possibility. The absence of light is darkness, the absence of good is evil, the absence of life is death.

> Does God want the consequences of your actions to be?

For the 9th time, this is an illegitimate question. The consequences of your actions are what they are, and there is no logic to asking, "What does God **want** them to be?"

If you want to talk about the character of God, we can do that. But you can't ask what God wants the consequences of sin to be and think we are talking about God's character. The consequences of sin is what they are, not what God chooses them to be.