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[Numbers]

To clarify, im agnostic on this issue, but for debates sake and for my own learning purposes ill take the stance in the title for the debate. Reasons why the Bible isnt true, fact, or the Word of God.

Since our moral code is so different from God's, then it is impossible to know wrong from right unless God directly comes and tells us. Example: God says Muslims are going to hell because they believe the wrong God. Does someone deserve to be tortured eternally for believing in their hearts that the God they worship is true, but ends up being wrong? My conscience says no, but God thinks so. Therefore, our conscience differs from God's so we dont inheretly know right from wrong, only God does.

People who say they know God exists dont, they are just trusting their feelings but dont know beyond a shadow of a doubt. When I was a christian and felt like i knew God existed, it felt like i had someone to trust, someone to protect me, and i felt safe from hell. God never came and talked to me (I got feelings that i attributed to being from God but they were feelings and intuitions, God didnt come talk to me personally and beyond a shadow of a doubt). If your experience with God had Him come talk to you, tell you what His will is, that He exists, and it wasnt just a feeling but actual true proof to you (only you know whether youre being completely honest here), then I'm highly interested in what that experience felt like and the details of it. People who trust Allah feel safe and like Allah is guiding their lives, they know Allah exists in their hearts, so they also say. This shows me that the reason most believe the Bible might be because they were taught it since birth, and those who believe the Quran do because they were taught it since birth, and either one could be wrong or right.

Also, lets pretend theres a two thousand year old book that says Malcolm is creator of the world, and if you dont believe this book you will burn in hell for eternity. If you worship God in the Bible, you will go to hell for eternity, according to this imaginary book. This book has some philosophy that checks out, has some moral guidance that says to love each other and love Malcolm. In the early days Malcolm had some rules that seemed cruel, such as you must stone those who worship God in the Bible, but the book says those rules only applied to the old Malcolm followers, and modern malcolm followers are to love everyone and love Malcolm. But if they dont believe in Malcolm or every word of the book, they will burn in hell forever. People believe in Malcolm in the present day, even though Malcolm doesnt talk to us, the only proof people have of Malcolm being true are the following: The feeling of safety and protection and love they get from Malcolm when they trust in him and the book. They feel like they know in their hearts Malcolm is real. (Lets say most followers were taught since birth the teachings in the book of Malcolm.) 2. The book was well preserved over the years. 3. The book has some moral teachings that seem great and the literature in it is high quality, the internal constistency is beautifully written and complex. 4. Lets say the book predicted that one day a black person would become president of the area now known as USA, that women would be allowed to vote one day, and that the areas known as Alaska and Hawaii would be known as parts of the U.S.A. some day. Also that the U.S.A. would go to war with the middle east in approximately 2000 years after the book was written, and gay marriage would be legal.

I know the book doesnt exist, but if you can imagine that it did, would you find that enough evidence to believe in Malcolm? If not, what sets this apart from why you believe the Bible is true?

Also, if you can explain any other reasons that you believe the Bible please let me know. Thank you very much.

[jimwalton]

OK, let's examine your premises. First you say our moral code is different from God's. What the Bible says is

1. God gave you a conscience so you know there is a right and wrong and you know what is right and what is wrong. Rom. 2.15; 2 Cor. 1.12; Rom. 1.19.

2. Humans have a choice whether to listen to their consciences or not. Acts 24.16.

3. Humans are able to change or block what their consciences tell them. 1 Cor. 8.7; Rom. 1.18, 21; 1 Tim. 1.19; 3.9

Therefore, according to the Bible and Christianity, everybody has a sense of right and wrong, but we have to decide to follow it or not. And we can actually corrupt our consciences so badly that they don't conform to the moral code based on God's character. Isaiah 5.20 says, "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."

Second you say that I only know God exists because I trust my feelings. Not so. First of all, I have examined the logical arguments for the existence of God, and they make a whole lot more sense than the arguments against His existence. Secondly, I have learned to trust what the Bible says because of its historical accuracy and experiential evidences. Third, I have experienced God in my own life to such a great extent that denying him would be absurd. Fourth, I've had answers to prayer that I have no other explanation for. But, just so you know, God never came and talked to me. It doesn't work like that. He "talks" to us through the Bible.

Third, your analogical story is very interesting, but I don't think it's an accurate representation of Christianity. I'd prefer to stay away from it and talk in real terms, not analogical ones.

Why do I believe the Bible?

Any lawyer will tell you there are different kinds of evidence: material evidence, circumstantial evidence, testimonial evidence, anecdotal, statistical, reasoning, documentary, historic, scientific, etc. Different kinds of evidence are valid in different situations. For instance, a lawyer may use scientists, eye-witnesses, circumstantial evidence, and testimonial evidence to bring his case to a jury, who must weigh the various evidences to arrive at a verdict. If science were the only evidence, court cases would be decided by scientists, not juries. But a whole lot more is involved. Evaluating the Bible is more like a court case than a science experiment. We have to use the proper measures in appropriate places. Miracles can't be proven by science because they're not repeatable on demand, or even able to be studied by reproducibility in controlled environments (the only appropriate arena for scientific inquiry). Here are some of the reasons I believe in the Bible:

1. Corroboration with history (history is always a matter of interpretation of records)

2. Corroboration with archaeological finds (becoming more scientific all the time, but still subject to a vast amount of interpretation)

3. Corroboration with known cultural (in history) markers

4. Corroboration with known geographical information

5. Reliable anecdotal evidence from trustworthy sources

6. Reason: The Bible gives a well-reasoned and consistent perspective and interpretation of life as we know it. The picture it presents makes sense.

7. Testimonial evidence (of people currently alive), consistent from person to person, of life change founded in a religious experience as described in the Bible. People's lives are still being radically changed by what they say is the truth of the Bible and the Holy Spirit inside of them.

8. Current realities (like the existence of the state of Israel and the existence of the Church) that don't make as much sense outside of the environments and interpretations described by the Bible.

9. The eyewitness accounts of the Bible ring true.

10. There is no hint of any kind of conspiracy, fraud, or collusion.

11. The writers of the Bible exude nobility, morality, and honor. To accuse them of deliberate deception is unreasonable. There is no hint that these men were insane. While they certainly lived in a non-literate culture, they didn't live in an illiterate one. These people were obviously not buffoons, barbarians, or blockheads, but were demonstrably fairly cogent and logical.

12. The consistency of theme, theology, and focus from over 40 authors from 3 continents over a span of 1600 years is unearthly.

13. Prophecy and fulfillment

14. The events they wrote about were public occurrences, not private experiences. Detecting fraud or error would have been easy.

15. Their writings have been pored over for millennia and have been accepted by great numbers of scholars.

16. The Bible has an unearthly kind of power to change lives for the people who submit to its teachings.

Well, that's 16 off the top of my head, at least enough to stimulate dialogue.

[Freddy Johns]

> First you say our moral code is different from God's.

Is the moral code correct because it's what God decided is moral or is morality already set in stone and God follows it because He is perfect?

[jimwalton]

> Is the moral code correct because it's what God decided is moral or is morality already set in stone and God follows it because He is perfect?

Neither. You're setting up a false dichotomy. Neither of these alternatives (posed as the only two choices) are what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that one aspect of the nature of God is goodness/righteousness, and that morality emanates from his character. Ethical good is not a reality outside of his being to which he must subscribe, nor can he act in a way that is self-contradictory and command anything contrary to his nature, viz., that which is morally bad. God doesn't have to decide what is moral, nor does God have to follow it (or choose to follow it. Morality comes from who He is. God's nature, then, is the basis of morality.

[Sure Breeze]

> according to the Bible and Christianity, everybody has a sense of right and wrong, but we have to decide to follow it or not.

Sorry, you wrote a lot but I just want to focus on this bit.

It's a historical fact that Christian morality has changed over the last 2000 years. Which one of you was wrong in your morality? Christians then? Christians now? Or perhaps you're all still wrong? I think those are all the options.

[jimwalton]

> It's a historical fact that Christian morality has changed over the last 2000 years.

Some illustrations or evidences would help me know what you're talking about and be able to address your question more accurately.

[TJ the DJ]

I ask that people disregard points 1-4. All they do is establish internal consistency and a setting for the god/bible claims. You can use the same points to conclude that Spider Man is real because it takes place in a realistic and accurate New York City.

[jimwalton]

I ask that people continue to regard points 1-4, because some of the things we are just digging up now that have been buried for thousands of years, and the writers of the Bible wouldn't necessarily have known about them. The fact that recent archaeological discoveries (artifacts and documents) corroborate the Bible's record is not a matter of internal consistency but of external authentication.