by Mazzino » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:15 pm
I agree it's often a hostile banter between atheist and theist, but this for the first time this is just two people chatting without egos about our perception of the way humanity functions, so thank you for that.
You said, "It's interesting to me that you admit to an objective morality but attribute it to a conscious decision on the part of societies contributing to survival." If the way I wrote that lead you to believe that I agreed with objective morality I did a bad job of explaining my position, I would literally be saying "I'm wrong but let me tell you why I'm right." That, of course, was not the message I was trying to get across. What I wrote was "I would agree that many moralities "SEEM" nonconscious and universal, but I think there is a natural explanation for this. I also wrote " I don't believe in objective morality. I think all societies and cultures value protection, progeny, and honor on a conscious level."
So, what are we saying exactly that is universally accepted? You gave the examples of, killing children, killing adults, theft, and lies, and you couched that with, for the fun of it. I think we both agree that "for the fun of it" is the immoral constant in this phrase. So, I don't see this as a difficult judgment to make for any social animal. We need to function together to survive. The lone individual perishes quickly without the group. Telling your tribe that you know where to find much-needed food and taking them on a wasted journey where there is no food just for the fun of it is madness. This behavior would cause the group to starve or at the very least go hungry unnecessarily. If this became a pattern of behavior by individuals in the group, the societal structure would break down, and man would never have survived. Truth is a necessary component for group cooperation and the success of the society. This explanation would apply to theft and murder. From the earliest small communities to the big city life of today, any "evil" "for the fun of it" is a drag on a successful community. Now look what I did, I just opened the door for you on good and evil, so let me segue to Good and Evil: does it require a God to define what is Good and what is Evil?
Basic Good and Evil.
I would say the concept of what good is and what evil has been ironed out by what works well, and what doesn't work well for me (again me being all the me's in the group). What works well for me is to enslave you and make you do my job for me, but I don't want to be your slave, so now what works better for me? What works better for me is I do my job, and you do your job, and we collaborate to achieve our goals. Does this follow if I have an army behind me and you don't? Yes, as a virtue it does. If you had the army behind you to force me to be your slave, how would that make me feel? So I may still force you to be my slave, but by doing that, I'm not acting good because I know I'm doing a thing to you that I would not want to be done to me. Is this an opinion? Yes. I think you can apply this to any basic good. Is life always this simple? No, not by a long shot.
Complex Good and Evil
I see a car speeding down the street, and it's heading right for a little girl. She's going to get hit. I know if I push her out of the way I will get hit. I stand there and do nothing as I watch her get smashed by the car. Am I evil? Is self-preservation evil? No, is that an opinion? Yes, and a perspective. I don't want to die, I don't want my own child to be without a father. To the parents of that child my inaction to them might be considered evil. I had the opportunity to save a child, and I refused to sacrifice myself for the greater good. Was I evil? Yes, I'm an older man, 20 years away for death by old age. A little girl has her whole life ahead of her, and I selfishly refused to stop this horrific accident. Is that an opinion? Yes, and a perspective.
Where does the concept of good and evil come from? God? Does God tell me that I'm evil for not sacrificing my life to save the little girl? What about the needs of my 5-year-old son? Would my sacrifice be good for my son who has lost his father? What if the next day another car was speeding down the road, and I'm unable to save my son because I'm dead, and the neighbor whose child I just saved doesn't act to protect my child? Who do I blame for that? My neighbor? God? The answer is neither. The answer must be left to the judgment of the individual. Good and Evil are "sometimes" relative to the perspective of the individual which make it an opinion.
The properties that are Good and Evil are opinions decided by humans, and that is why if there is a God you can't blame good for evil and giving credit to God for good is misplacing the praise. This is what I see theists doing all the time. When something evil happens like I make you my slave and beat you to death, I acted evil, but your family blames me, it's not God making me do evil. If I save the little girl from getting hit by the car, they thank God for sending me to save their child. This is proof in itself that God isn't the arbiter of God and Evil. If Good was always Good and had nothing to do with what is Good for me, and Good was the same in everyone's mind, then you have a claim for a universal Good, but that isn't what we see.