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[Doo Doo]

Yeah nothing sexual about keeping the virgins. LOL. Funny they didn't keep the little boys around. Hmmm I wonder why. But even if it said "keep the virgins AND thou shalt rapest themest" you'd still defend it anyways wouldn't you?

[jimwalton]

No, I wouldn't defend rape. Nor would any of the writers of the Bible. Now would God. That's exactly the point.

The fact is, the text DOESN'T say "keep the virgins and rape them." What it says is to keep the virgins and marry them after due time. Of course there's a sexual element to it, but it certainly isn't rape.

[Prodigy]

Question for you: how did the Israelites know if a girl was a virgin or not? Because elsewhere in the Bible, on a woman's wedding night if she's proven to not be a virgin, then she's stoned on her father's doorstep. If I remember correctly, the practice was such that if she did not bleed during coitus, this meant her hymen was not intact and she wasn't a virgin. So again, how did the Israelites determine if the enemy girls were virgins or not?

[jimwalton]

Finally a good question. Thank you.

No test for virginity was used. In the event of war, evaluations would be visual: sometimes a specific way of dressing particular to the culture (compare 2 Samuel 13.18), cosmetics (a pre-marriage dot, as we see in Hindu cultures), or the presence of other non-virginal married status ornaments (veils, headwear, particular jewelry, or certain hairstyles). In many cultures non-virginal unmarried women were also indicated by special markings or accessories.

In ancient Mesopotamian and Syrian art, the physical characteristics of women on the erotic plaques are totally different from the way woman are represented. As with the clay sculptures, they are frequently naked and their hair is loose. When they are dressed there are different styles of clothes. In Babylon, married women were not veiled; in Assyria, married women were veiled. In other words, identifying the status of women in most cultures of the ancient world would have been relatively straightforward.

[Trash Compactor]

> It would be morally reprehensible for God to command rape.

This runs counter to the idea that God is good by definition.

[jimwalton]

I'll admit you lost me with your comment. I don't understand, but I would like to. If it would be morally reprehensible for God to command rape (in other words, such a command would never be something God would say), then how does that bring us to the conclusion that God isn't good, by definition? I don't get it.

[Slipped Tongue]

the "text" also never says Mary was a virgin...just a young woman.

[jimwalton]

Sure it does. Luke 1.27 uses the Greek word παρθένον, used for a person who had not had sexual relations. Mary confirms the translation as "virgin" in Lk. 1.34 when she admits she has never "known a man" (a euphemism for sex).

[Big Clocks]

Deuteronomy 20:10-14:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you

Deuteronomy 21:10-14:
When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.

Judges 5:30:
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.

Judges 21:10-24:
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Zechariah 14:1-2:
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.

[jimwalton]

God is never OK with rape. God never endorsed it; God never commanded it.

> Deut. 20.10-14.

The text says nothing about rape. War captives were brought back to Israel to be integrated into the families and daily life there, in other words, protected and provided for. Although rape was a common feature in ancient Near Eastern warfare, Israelite soldiers were prohibited from raping women. Sex was permitted only within the bound of marital commitment, a repeated theme laid out in the Mosaic Law.

> Deuteronomy 21:10-14

There is no mention of rape here. Women were brought back to the homestead to be wives of the men. There is no mention of coercive sex.

> Judges 5.30

You haven't read this carefully. Deborah is censuring the enemy, because they are using women as sexual objects. Israel does no such thing.

> Judges 21:10-24

Same problem as last text. You haven't read carefully. You'll notice in this text that God never commands what they do, and he never endorses it. Judges 21 is a dreadful and dark picture of sin and disobedience. In the book of Judges things just go from bad to worse. Even though they sit before the Lord (21.5), there is no word from the Lord, no command to what they should do. They come up with their own plan, and not a good one at that. They slaughter the people of Jabesh Gilead. Then they devise a plan of kidnapping. God has nothing to do with this fiasco. Notice how the story ends (v. 25): "Everyone did as they saw fit."

> Zechariah 14:1-2

Again, you haven't read the text. It's about the enemies of the Lord and the enemies of Israel invading Jerusalem and raping the women. This is not an idea that God has perpetuated or endorsed but is done by sinful, evil people.

There's nothing in these texts that says God is OK with rape, that he commands it or endorses it.